Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

[Cruentus]

It was a chapter in Grossmans book, but it was taken from a speech:

The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997...

I only pointed this out, because a couple people argued that it was "bad writing." The excerp was taken from a speech, so it was not originally intended to be submitted as a writing piece. The speech took place at a navel academy. This helps bring context to the analogy.

:supcool:

 

[elder999]

It was a chapter in Grossmans book, but it was taken from a speech:



I only pointed this out, because a couple people argued that it was "bad writing." The excerp was taken from a speech, so it was not originally intended to be submitted as a writing piece. The speech took place at a navel academy. This helps bring context to the analogy.

:supcool:

I think-if I';m understanding you-that you may have that backwards. It's a chapter in the book that quotes William Bennet's speech..though it doesn't in the book, because, as I said, it was first published before the speech took place.

 

[Cruentus]

I think-if I';m understanding you-that you may have that backwards. It's a chapter in the book that quotes William Bennet's speech..though it doesn't in the book, because, as I said, it was first published before the speech took place.

I see what your saying....but now I'm confused.

I'll have to dig up my copy of Grossmans book and see what's going on there...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since the point of this thread is to use an analogy to justify a moral doctrine--the idea that a certain select few have both the responsibility and the right to protect the, sheep," whether they like it or not--using a citation from William Bennett, ex-Secretary of Education, author of, "The Book of Morals," and world-class gambling addict, is a sweet choice.

Among the things it opens up is this: has it ever occured to you guys that a) criminals might very well use exactly the same analogy for self-justification; b) down through history, the wars and misery caused by all these sheepdogs as they work so very, very hard to protect us losers is a primary driver of endless human misery?

 

[Flatlander]

a) Why would we be concerned with how criminals justify their own actions? There is no end to crime; it has been around forever, and will remain a part of our society forever. I cannot begrudge one for justifying what they have done, or what they will do. I needn't agree with it, but they're still free to justify things in their way. The wonderful thing about democracy is that the criminals are usually in the minority. That speaks to me a great deal about the nature of free people.
b) Perhaps those weren't sheepdogs. Perhaps those were wolves. Perhaps by being the one choosing to educate the ignorant about the TRUTH, you are a sheepdog too.

Ultimately, it seems as though the interpretation of this analogy can be quite subjective.

 

[rmcrobertson]

If we find ourselves using exactly the same rationales as criminals and monsters, I would say we probably ought to reconsider--especially when we're using that rationale to justify violence, no matter how good the cause happens to be.

 

[Tgace]

Looks like were in last word mode..tag your it. :shrug:

Woof!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Or, we could try being people and actually thinking about the topic.

And dogs do not actually say, "Woof."

 

[Tgace]

Tag.

 

[Cruentus]

Or, we could try being people and actually thinking about the topic.

And dogs do not actually say, "Woof."

Uh....Bark!?

 

[shesulsa]

I met a dog who said "Ruff-Ruff," "Roo-Roo," "Bark-Bark" and "Arf-Arf." His owners taught him that. Was pretty impressed, actually.

AND, as far as I understand it, sheeps don't go "Baaaaah," they go "meeeeh."

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[Cryozombie]

I think cats don't go meow, they go MEW.

 

[shesulsa]

Actually, kittens go "mew" - cats go "meow," "rare," meeyowwrrrr," and "eeerrrr."

 

[Cruentus]

Gorsh...all this talk about animals gets me all pumped to go put on a uniform, beat the crap out of the public, and turn our country into a police state!

 

[Tgace]

Woof!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I stuck my head in this post, after submitting a little bit to it early on, and wasn't surprised to see some people still trying to link the opposing argument with Hitler. Oh well, I guess that's just the nature of the opposition.

I also noticed a couple Heinlein references. Since the Heinlein tome was mostly veiled anti-communist allegory, I can see how some people with communist-esque philosophers could find it deeply disturbing. Still, Heinlein's main point was that some people take responsibility for protecting society, while other's don't.

I can also see where, if you have no intention of taking responsibility for protecting society, how some might resent those who do. It's a backhanded way of feeling superior for them. They can view those who they look to provide basic protection to them in their beds while still maintaining a feeling of sophistication, being above all those mundane concerns. They chaffe at even the slightest suggestion that anyone who does the sacrificing should be in any way viewed as having done any great service. That offends their egalitarian nature. As we all know, we need to all be EQUALS. Hmmm. Again, there's that equality thing. Equality by nature, or equality by deeds?

"And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

Maybe the problem is that some don't like the feeling they get when they contemplate the sacrifice of others. And to be the slightest bit GRATEFUL for that sacrifice? NEVER! That would be....uncivilized. That's alright, we don't do it for the gratitude. We just do it anyway. It is ironic that Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers was brought up, as he illustrates very well in the book that those in the military are likewise despised by civilians for the very same reasons that many object to the term Sheep. It's worth reading Heinlein's book to make the determination yourselves. Don't make a judgement about the book by the horrible satire created by Paul Verhoven. Many of Heinlein's detractors attempt to paint Heinlein's book as Fascist (much like they try to paint anyone who has a political philosophy they disagree with by saying 'Hitler would say that'.) There is absolutely nothing Fascist about Heinlein's book, and I defy anyone to show otherwise.




"Nothing of value is free. Even the breath of life is purchased at birth only through gasping effort and pain. . . . The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion . . . and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself--ultimate cost for perfect value."

Jean V. Debois

Starship Troopers

​

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I can also see where, if you have no intention of taking responsibility for protecting society, how some might resent those who do. It's a backhanded way of feeling superior for them. They can view those who they look to provide basic protection to them in their beds while still maintaining a feeling of sophistication, being above all those mundane concerns. They chaffe at even the slightest suggestion that anyone who does the sacrificing should be in any way viewed as having done any great service. That offends their egalitarian nature. As we all know, we need to all be EQUALS. Hmmm. Again, there's that equality thing. Equality by nature, or equality by deeds?

"And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

Maybe the problem is that some don't like the feeling they get when they contemplate the sacrifice of others. And to be the slightest bit GRATEFUL for that sacrifice? NEVER! That would be....uncivilized. That's alright, we don't do it for the gratitude. We just do it anyway.

Wow, I love how everything you're talking about here isn't being said by anyone in this thread. Nobody made any insults about LEOs or military personnel, this discussion was (supposed to be) about the accuracy of an analogy. That's ok, though, if you have to resort to accusations and guilt trips, you go ahead.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Heinlein wrote a book in which, essentially, a military cadre runs the government: one only becomes eligible to vote by enlisting.

Moreover, the world depicted is at seemingly-endless war, with an enemy specifically despised because of their biology: no civilian authority whatsoever is visible anywhere in the book, only the military.

The book may very well be satirical, like Heinlein's weird, "Farnholm's Freehold," and his similar novels of the period.

The best single critique of the book appears as Joe Haldeman, "The Forever War."

 

[Tgace]

Woof! Bark?

 

[Tgace]

"We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."