Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[blindsage]

No Shenfa

No Shenfa

No Shenfa

No Shenfa

That beared repeating a number of times.

All of those videos were extremely off the mark. The Taiji looked, as said before, like something someone learned off a video with little to no comprehension of actual Taiji principles. The bagua and the xingyi, looked liked karatified versions of themselves. Actual bagua and xingyi (and taiji for that matter) move VERY differently that what is demonstrated in those videos.

 

[clfsean]

kinda weird how the superimposed the ocean background and stuff. Distracting.

HA!! I didn't even notice!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

kinda weird how the superimposed the ocean background and stuff. Distracting.

As much as I am impressed with Chen Xiaowang and knowing that he is highly skilled.... I have got to agree

so here...use this one....from the younger brother

ahhh that's better

 

[Xue Sheng]

That beared repeating a number of times.

All of those videos were extremely off the mark. The Taiji looked, as said before, like something someone learned off a video with little to no comprehension of actual Taiji principles. The bagua and the xingyi, looked liked karatified versions of themselves. Actual bagua and xingyi (and taiji for that matter) move VERY differently that what is demonstrated in those videos.

They may want to look into the meaning of "Sandao (Shen Yi Shi)" and "Yi Qi Li" too

 

[Flying Crane]

As much as I am impressed with Chen Xiaowang and knowing that he is highly skilled.... I have got to agree

so here...use this one....from the younger brother

yeah, this one is much easier to watch.

hey Xue,

tell me what you think of these thoughts. I have to admit, I never really "got" taiji and I finally stopped doing it altogether. I think my training with my current white crane sifu has given me some insights that might help me understand what I'm seeing in taiji a bit better than I had before.

What I'm seeing when I watch this video is all the movements, whether it's a turn, rotation, step, shift, they all begin with the feet and legs. That is what "drives" the movement, the power of the legs and feet actively engaging to propel. The difference being, what I believe most people who do not understand taiji well, and who are really just doing it for fun and exercise, they initiate the movement from the top-down, starting with the shoulders they turn and move and shift, and they kinda step "late" to keep a prop under the torso. This is in contrast to actually driving the movement with the feet. Visually, it's a subtle distinction and would be overlooked and missed by anyone who isn't clued into it.

Does that make sense? and I correct in what I think I see?

 

[blindsage]

hey Xue,

tell me what you think of these thoughts. I have to admit, I never really "got" taiji and I finally stopped doing it altogether. I think my training with my current white crane sifu has given me some insights that might help me understand what I'm seeing in taiji a bit better than I had before.

What I'm seeing when I watch this video is all the movements, whether it's a turn, rotation, step, shift, they all begin with the feet and legs. That is what "drives" the movement, the power of the legs and feet actively engaging to propel. The difference being, what I believe most people who do not understand taiji well, and who are really just doing it for fun and exercise, they initiate the movement from the top-down, starting with the shoulders they turn and move and shift, and they kinda step "late" to keep a prop under the torso. This is in contrast to actually driving the movement with the feet. Visually, it's a subtle distinction and would be overlooked and missed by anyone who isn't clued into it.

Does that make sense? and I correct in what I think I see?

You are right on FC. This a major portion of what most people miss is Taiji.

 

[Xue Sheng]

hey Xue,

tell me what you think of these thoughts. I have to admit, I never really "got" taiji and I finally stopped doing it altogether. I think my training with my current white crane sifu has given me some insights that might help me understand what I'm seeing in taiji a bit better than I had before.

What I'm seeing when I watch this video is all the movements, whether it's a turn, rotation, step, shift, they all begin with the feet and legs. That is what "drives" the movement, the power of the legs and feet actively engaging to propel. The difference being, what I believe most people who do not understand taiji well, and who are really just doing it for fun and exercise, they initiate the movement from the top-down, starting with the shoulders they turn and move and shift, and they kinda step "late" to keep a prop under the torso. This is in contrast to actually driving the movement with the feet. Visually, it's a subtle distinction and would be overlooked and missed by anyone who isn't clued into it.
Does that make sense? and I correct in what I think I see?

You are correct, power comes from the root and is directed by the waist. I have heard many say the power comes from the waist in Taijiquan but that is not correct and if you watch videos Chen Xiaoxing, Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei or of videos of Tung Hu Ling (Yang style) you will see this (Power fron the root and directed by the waist) demonstrated rather well. But to get that to work you also need to have a unity between the upper and lower body. and again watch the videos of those listed and you will see that. As for Yang style in general refer to Yang Chengfu's 10 essentials and it is written out as to what is needed.

You are right on FC. This a major portion of what most people miss is Taiji.

HEY!!!!! You're not me...you are right...but you're not me.....:hmm: Although I did previously answer a question to you...But that doesn’t count

 

[Flying Crane]

You are correct, power comes from the root and is directed by the waist. I have heard many say the power comes from the waist in Taijiquan but that is not correct and if you watch videos Chen Xiaoxing, Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei or of videos of Tung Hu Ling (Yang style) you will see this (Power fron the root and directed by the waist) demonstrated rather well. But to get that to work you also need to have a unity between the upper and lower body. and again watch the videos of those listed and you will see that. As for Yang style in general refer to Yang Chengfu's 10 essentials and it is written out as to what is needed.

This is exactly like White Crane. And Sifu has always said that they are the same.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

This is exactly like White Crane. And Sifu has always said that they are the same.

There actually a book my sifu showed me last night but can't remember the name....tai chi shin na? or something...anyway the guy was a crane master and learned taiji and wrote about book applying the two. it was pretty cool from what I gathered from thumbing through it. sifu said that it's not really taiji he's doing in the book but crane movements, but the way he's applying crane techniques to with a different spin seems to work well. or something like that, I'm not directly quoting here.

edit:I think it's Tai Chi Chin na in depth
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/internal/taiji-chin-na

this is the cover I saw last night out of the few books I got to glance at. can't remember if this is the book with the crane guy or not though.

 

[clfsean]

There actually a book my sifu showed me last night but can't remember the name....tai chi shin na? or something...anyway the guy was a crane master and learned taiji and wrote about book applying the two. it was pretty cool from what I gathered from thumbing through it. sifu said that it's not really taiji he's doing in the book but crane movements, but the way he's applying crane techniques to with a different spin seems to work well. or something like that, I'm not directly quoting here.

edit:I think it's Tai Chi Chin na in depth
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/internal/taiji-chin-na

this is the cover I saw last night out of the few books I got to glance at. can't remember if this is the book with the crane guy or not though.

Different White Crane. And I'm sorry, but hearing your teacher said he's really not doing taiji is just pretty freaking funny.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Different White Crane. And I'm sorry, but hearing your teacher said he's really not doing taiji is just pretty freaking funny.

Why? If that's the crane master he was talking about he said the technique looked more crane then taiji. Or maybe it was he said crane applications in a taiji execution. either way what's wrong with that? I couldn't tell, because I don't know what I'm suppose to be looking for and I'm summarizing what I remember of the conversation, but I would imagine that if someone does an art for years and then tries a new one you'll still see stuff from the original. I did TKD for about 6 years, and I still see it in my kicks.

he still said it was a good book and recommend reading it, he loaned it to one of my fellow students and let me borrow cheng man-ch'ing t'ai chi ch'uan a simplified method of calisthenics for health and self defense

 

[clfsean]

Why? If that's the crane master he was talking about he said the technique looked more crane then taiji. Or maybe it was he said crane applications in a taiji execution. either way what's wrong with that? I couldn't tell, because I don't know what I'm suppose to be looking for and I'm summarizing what I remember of the conversation, but I would imagine that if someone does an art for years and then tries a new one you'll still see stuff from the original. I did TKD for about 6 years, and I still see it in my kicks.

Well... Dr Yang is both highly skilled in Yang Taiji & White Crane (Ming He I think). Of course there's going to be cross pollenation between them, just like most anybody with multiple tools in their general skill set. Taiji is a qinna heavy art. White Crane shares a fair bit of qinna as well. Purist from both styles will say they see the other in his performance of the other.

I'm just saying that it's funny that your teacher thought to pick out from a book, what he thinks he sees in pictures, as one or the other in a book about a specific topic. We've kinda hit on this topic before about books & their pros/cons.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Well... Dr Yang is both highly skilled in Yang Taiji & White Crane (Ming He I think). Of course there's going to be cross pollenation between them, just like most anybody with multiple tools in their general skill set. Taiji is a qinna heavy art. White Crane shares a fair bit of qinna as well. Purist from both styles will say they see the other in his performance of the other.

I'm just saying that it's funny that your teacher thought to pick out from a book, what he thinks he sees in pictures, as one or the other in a book about a specific topic. We've kinda hit on this topic before about books & their pros/cons.

Ah gotca, I don't know if I was there for that thread. I dont' recall at least. yeah I think he was just pointing out why the movements might look different to us.

I think this is where we get into schools of thought. Even though you have five schools all doing taiji you'll have differences on understanding and applications to a degree, I THINK at least I think this is true for any martial art. After all didn't Yang Luchan first learn from Chen family?

 

[Xue Sheng]

There actually a book my sifu showed me last night but can't remember the name....tai chi shin na? or something...anyway the guy was a crane master and learned taiji and wrote about book applying the two. it was pretty cool from what I gathered from thumbing through it. sifu said that it's not really taiji he's doing in the book but crane movements, but the way he's applying crane techniques to with a different spin seems to work well. or something like that, I'm not directly quoting here.

edit:I think it's Tai Chi Chin na in depth
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/internal/taiji-chin-na

this is the cover I saw last night out of the few books I got to glance at. can't remember if this is the book with the crane guy or not though.

Dr Yang (who wrote the book you are talking about) is incredibly skilled when it comes to Qinna. I have done push hands with him and he took me out with qinna. He is also highly skilled with White Crane and Long Fist too.

Interesting view of Dr Yang's Taijiquan and the reason I say this is I once showed my sifu a video of Dr Yang doing Taijiquan and his first words, after watching it, were "What style of Kung fu does he do?" He also said that what Dr Yang is doing is not Taiji it is much close to his Whit Crane and Long Fist.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ah gotca, I don't know if I was there for that thread. I dont' recall at least. yeah I think he was just pointing out why the movements might look different to us.

I think this is where we get into schools of thought. Even though you have five schools all doing taiji you'll have differences on understanding and applications to a degree, I THINK at least I think this is true for any martial art. After all didn't Yang Luchan first learn from Chen family?

Most schools associated with the Chen family are pretty similar in their applications and views of Chen Taijiquan. Most in a traditional Yang lineage are family similar too. However there will be differences based on body types and what the practitioner brings with him from other styles they have trained

But, the underlying principles are the same.

When talking to Chen Zhenglei about Yang style he said Yang is good but the stance it too high
When talking to my sifu about Chen style he said Chen is good but the stance it too low

There is the big difference

 

[Flying Crane]

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming practices the Fukienese/Fujian White Crane, which I believe may have been an ancestor of Wing Chun. That is different from the Tibetan White Crane that I practice. The origins and history and approach to training, and the techniques are very different. They don't look anything alike.

I've got the book too, it's interesting, but not what I train in. It's very heavy on qi-gong training.

And yes, Dr. Yang is also a very highly skilled Taiji instructor. He is the real deal in both of those systems and he has written numerous books, several on quin-na.

 

[Jin Gang]

Necromancy!

Lower level : white - green belt (3 months- 6 months)
20 sparring techniques - short combinations of hand strikes, kicks and sweeps performed from a natural fighting stance
30 short forms - short combinations of hand attacks, kicks and sweeps performed from traditional martial arts stances, bow stance, horse stance, cat stance/fake leg stance. Somewhat reminiscent of tan tui in format.
30 "chin na" - escapes and counters of various standing grabs and holds
9 one-step sparring techniques - counters to a single attack performed with the attacker starting at two arms' lengths away.
10 fighting techniques - counters to a single attack performed with the attacker starting at one arm's length away
4 different staff spinning methods
16 different nunchaku/ar jie gun swinging techniques
4 empty hand forms (all very short)
si men dao lian - way of linking four doors - beginning bird/crane form
fei hu chu dong - flying tiger comes out of cave - short tiger form
tai peng shen quan (sin kune) - great bird expanding fist (spreads wings) - "big" bird form
luohan chien(quan) - beginning praying mantis form
2 weapon forms (short)
chu ji gun (first level staff), or si mien ba fang bang (four faces eight direction cudgel). Same form, named different depending on which faction you follow
bei fang qi gai bang (northern beggar stick/cudgel - a thigh/waist height stick)

Intermiediate/Brown Belt - exact order of instruction depends on which SD faction you belong to
10 empty hand forms
San he chien(quan) - three harmony fist (similar to san zhan of southern white crane and five ancestors, but performed with dynamic tension and body testing like the Okinawan version of the same)
Bai He Zhuan Chi - white crane circling wings
Bai He Zhan Chi - white crane jabs wings
Bai He Zhuan Jiao - white crane circling legs
Luo Tian - descends from heaven ("shaolin bird" system)
Zhan Yu- spreading feathers ("shaolin bird")
Yan Ge - performing dove ("shaolin bird")
Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan - "golden mountain tiger form" (the word for mountain is not in that name, but that is how Sin The translated it)
Jie Quan - connecting fist (reminiscent of Jing Wu's form of the same name)
Lian Wu Zhang -linking five palms (reminiscent of a northern shaolin ditang form of the same name)
5 weapon forms
Si Mien Ba Fang Gun, aka Si Ba Gun (four eight staff - a long tapered/rat tail staff)
Ye Zhan Ba Fang Dao (night battle eight direction saber/"broadsword")
Hai Long Zhang (sea dragon cane - a nose/eyebrow height staff)
Guan Gung Dao (General Guan's big blade)
Tie Cha (Iron fork - known as sai in Japanese)

1st Black Belt and up the curriculum varies more widely depending on which faction you belong to, not all in the same order or for the same level, and not all forms shared

forms that are common requirements across the board afaik-
Yang Taijiquan 37/64 posture form (actually Cheng Manqing's 37 posture form)
"classical" Baguazhang (actually Jiang Rong Qiao's original form)
Hei Hu Da Xin - black tiger rips the heart
Hei Hu Zhuan Shen - black tiger turns the body
Hei Hu Fan Shen - black tiger flips the body
Hei Hu Shou Shang - black tiger suffering wounds
xingyiquan five element fists
xingyiquan linking form
xingyiquan 12 animals
xingyiquan two person set
Four Roads of Hua Quan
Tiger Crane Duet (from Hung Gar)
Shaolin Five Animals (from Hung Sing Choy Li Fut)
Eight drunken immortals (eight different forms, at least five of them are in the testing curriculum)
Praying Mantis Fist (that is the name of the form)
Chen taijiquan (actually chen xinjia yi lu)

4 spear forms
double saber form
double tiger hook swords
4 straight sword/jian forms (including a yang taijiquan jian form)
chain whip form
shaolin dagger form
taiji saber form
drunken spear, sword, and saber
chen taiji fan form

I know I have left some out, bbl

 

[Jin Gang]

Continued-
buttefly swords
Fu Jia Quan - Buddha Family Fist
24 posture simplified taijiquan

There are a few other assorted weapon forms which may be in the curriculum.

As for the question about whether the curriculum continues to change, so far it doesn't seem to have changed much since the late eighties or early nineties, when I believe the Shaolin Five Animals form was introduced. I haven't been in the system since 2006, but I was familiar with the curriculum up to 5th black belt, I was told a few years back that the curriculum for 6th black was "revealed", and it is all praying mantis forms which had been taught out in seminars over the years, like zhai yao, white monkey steals the peach, secret door mantis two person set, etc. New forms are taught every year by Sin The in seminars. The claim of 900 forms is a gross exaggeration, however. There are a lot of forms, far too many, but not nearly 900. The actual curriculum that is tested on, for someone who spends about 15 years in the system, is around 75 or 80 forms. That is not including whatever seminar forms a person might attend, which aren't actually reviewed or tested over.

There are currently three main factions within the system - Shaolin Do Association is headquartered in Kentucky and includes most of the eastern and Texas schools. Chinese Shaolin Center is headquartered in Colorado and used to include all of the western schools. These two organizations have slightly different curriculums, teach a few different forms from eachother, and practice some forms and techniques different from eachother. The Chinese Shaolin Center of Georgia was started by a student of the Colorado school, and broke off from them. Tennessee schools later broke off from Kentucky and joined up with Georgia, and then some of the western schools defected from Colorado and joined up with Ten/Georgia as well. So far this division appears to be mainly political, there hasn't been much changing of curriculum from those schools' original factions.

I spent four years in a CSC in Colorado. I came in with 11 years training exclusively Okinawan karate, so I did not get my basics from the CSC. I don't think the system currently does a great job instilling any fundamentals, of whatever style we think the core curriculm might actually be (I'd say an Indonesian/Chinese Kuntao hybrid system). Too much material too fast, not enough time spent practicing the material. Not to mention the critique everyone else has mentioned, that they are not teaching the correct mechanics for most of the styles they claim to teach, particularly the internal styles. Even when you practice constantly outside of class and spend every hour available in the training hall, as I did, eventually the material catches up to you and there are not enough hours in the day for all of it. Those who persist in the system necessarily sacrifice depth for quantity of material. I left and searched for more traditional guidance and instruction in the internal styles, and kept practicing a few of the unique external forms that I liked.

 

[Josealb]

Woa....that is....a lot.

To each hes own i say. I prefer aiming to do one single thing better than anyone, than do 100 things more or less like the average joe.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

So Master Nance is in the southeast / texas faction?