Shaolin-Do Curriculum?

[Blaze Dragon]

So you can differentiate the different versions of energies when actively sparring? After four years?

Yes... that's sarcastic just to keep the topic we're discussing on the forefront. Again how...

nope, and that's why I said I try to focus on taiji stuff while sparring. though I think I can to a degree, because if get in a taiji stance my body thinks taiji, if I get in a bagua stance it thinks bagua, if I get in a xingyi stance it thinks xingyi. so I THINK I can...think is key word there.

To answer your question about meshing, let me pose a question that might help exemplify it ... Would I be wrong in advertising that I'm selling my Lamborghini for 8k but then when somebody shows up, they see my old Ranger pickup with a Lambo sticker? I mean, they are both motor vehicles, both have four wheels, both have manual transmissions, etc... Just because something looks & functions ok doesn't mean that's necessarily what it is in actuality.

harsh, but I get the image you are going for. the reason I ask, is I've done this for years anyway. my father taught me boxing, I did karate classes at the ymca, I did high school wrestling for less then a year, I did tkd for about 6 years, then did tien shan pai for 2 years, then back to tkd for 2 years then SD for going on 4.

I don't think I'm a bad martial artist. I feel like I've learned stuff and I mix and match the techniques and styles to make my own mix. so when I learn SD it seems about the same as what I've been doing anyway.

 

[Flying Crane]

You really don't like any of it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXqHBK1Eyw&feature=share&list=PL65D121B689D84C7B

I've watched close to ten minutes of this, the first solo form, the spear vs. dao form, the sparring, and part of the taiji fan. Here's what I see.

I see people moving and hitting "postures" in a robotic way. They are following a choreography that they have memorized. They don't know why they are doing it, other than that "sifu said to move like this...". In the taiji, I see a guy moving slowly, and nothing more. I don't see anything else going on that defines what Taiji is as a method. It is done as performance art and not as a training tool. In the sparring, I see two guys playing hand-and-foot tag, like you can find in any strip-mall family-friendly kuhratty school.

I train Tibetan White Crane, a sister method to the Lama Pai that CLFSean is studying. They both are splinters from an older tradition that dates back to around the 14th century, if you believe the oral history. I'm gonna tell you the secret of White Crane, right here and right now. Geez, now that I'm thinking about it, I might have already said this stuff in an earlier post in this very thread, but I haven't looked at it in a while, so oh well. Anyway, here's the secret: Full Body Engagement. That's it. We train to bring the whole body together, to harness the power and strength of the whole body when we deliver our techniques. That is what White Crane is all about. But here's the kicker: I don't believe we are the only ones who do that. I believe many other systems do that too, or at least strive to, and some do it better than others. Some BELIEVE They are doing it, but have failed, but that's another issue. Anyway, what is unique about White Crane and its sister systems is specifically HOW we go about training to make that full-body connection. We have a specific methodology for teaching and practicing and training and developing that skill. I won't try to describe it here, but we have various exercises and drills and progressions that help us in this endeavor. Our techniques are part of that process, and our forms are also part of that process. But the process begins before all that, with a series of basic exercises, and we then progress to these other things.

What I'm getting at is this: White Crane, and any system that is thoughtfully developed and well put together, has a purpose in everything that we do, it is all designed to aid in the underlying goal of full-body engagement. All of our techniques and forms and drills and exercises contribute to this. They are not performance art, they are not something for "artistic expression", they are not a shopping list of requirements for the next belt test. They are tools that serve a purpose in helping us develop our skills and they were never meant to be put on display and rubber-necked by an uneducated audience. Because in our approach to training, that full body engagement gives you much more to work with than any collection of techniques or collection of forms will, if you don't understand what drives them.

When I watch the forms in that video, I see people doing memorized choreography, clumsily, and without any concept of why they are doing it. I see people doing their techniques without any body engagement. They are relying only on the strength of their arms and shoulders and fail to bring the power of the body into the movement. And I'm not talking about interpreting X movement into a self defense application, that's easy and shallow and also pointless without understanding the foundation. I'm talking about the deeper "WHY" are they doing the form? What foundational skill does that form contribute to? How does practicing that form strengthen that foundational skill? I don't see that at all on that video.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think I'm a bad martial artist. I feel like I've learned stuff and I mix and match the techniques and styles to make my own mix. so when I learn SD it seems about the same as what I've been doing anyway.

Here's something from my past. I too trained in a few different things along the way. I felt much like you do. I collected things from various systems, I was a shodan in Tracy kenpo, I had trained in capoeira and Wing Chun and taiji and learned some Shaolin stuff and I kinda just piled it all together and called it good. I thought that if I just kept practicing this stuff, kept repeating the choreography of all these the forms (probably some 60-70 or so, if I were to count them up), that someday it would just sort of...come together and "work" for me. Nobody had really explained it any deeper than that, so that's what I kinda believed, tho honestly for a long time I harbored doubts in the back of my mind, something was kinda missing. But I didn't know what it was and couldn't describe my feeling very well.

THEN... I was introduced to my current sifu, a very VERY knowledgeable teacher in White Crane. I had been training white crane under one of his students for over a decade, and that man took me to his teacher who is now my sifu. But I FINALLY got the quality of instruction to begin to understand how mistaken I was. I FINALLY started to understand what was important, that foundational stuff and not just collecting techniques and forms. Sticking to a consistent method that makes sense and actually works, and understanding the progression of training to develop that real skill. I realized how mistaken I was and how much time I had wasted over DECADES, dammit. I threw everything away, all that other stuff, and only kept white crane because suddenly it made sense, and suddenly I could see how continuing to practice the other methods was actually a conflict in my white crane development. In kenpo, we train our punches differently than in white crane. I remember vividly one day, in kenpo class, standing in a lineup and practicing punches. And all the while I was thinking to myself, "this is damaging my white crane, because the method is different and actually conflicts with the white crane method. The longer I do this, the worse my white crane will be. And the longer I do white crane, the worse my kenpo will be"

I actually had that thought go thru my head as I was throwing punches. I realized that as an approach to training, white crane made the most sense to me out of everything I had trained. So I dumped everything else and decided to focus. And life got easier, my training was less cluttered and more streamlined and I began to really understand how everything I do in my training is contributing to that one underlying all-important thing in our training: how to develop full body engagement.

So I know what you are thinking, I was there too. And unfortunately, the truly great teachers, the ones who can really guide you properly, are few and far between and not easy to come by.

 

[blindsage]

Come on guys your being kinda mean. I like the style, I can't speak for all instructors but mine is awesome and I feel like he really knows his stuff

I can understand where your coming from but it's not all that bad.

You really don't like any of it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXqHBK1Eyw&feature=share&list=PL65D121B689D84C7B

Flying Crane's assessment is pretty much right on the mark. But to put it more bluntly, without trying to be mean, no. I honestly don't like any of it. The forms look like they are being done by people with less than a year's training, not black belts. The sparring is only slightly better. If you take any one of those forms and then go look at people who do them from the styles they are actually from, you will see a remarkable difference.

And as an aside, if you are using Taiji "stances" while you are sparring, you're missing the point. In reality there are no actual stances when using Taiji, what some teach as stances are just training tools to help people get to a place where they can understand what Taiji actually teaches. Getting stuck on stances is besides the point.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Flying Crane's assessment is pretty much right on the mark. But to put it more bluntly, without trying to be mean, no. I honestly don't like any of it. The forms look like they are being done by people with less than a year's training, not black belts. The sparring is only slightly better. If you take any one of those forms and then go look at people who do them from the styles they are actually from, you will see a remarkable difference.

And as an aside, if you are using Taiji "stances" while you are sparring, you're missing the point. In reality there are no actual stances when using Taiji, what some teach as stances are just training tools to help people get to a place where they can understand what Taiji actually teaches. Getting stuck on stances is besides the point.

fair enough at least I'm getting a better idea of why people say some of the things they do. I don't mean taiji stances I mean principles. Sinking my weight, allow the attack to come in and deflecting there movement by turn with the technique. "listen" skills when it's at full extent and then follow them back to "uproot" them. using the principles of my whole body, as one side collapses the other side expands. keeping my area and turning instead of folding my arms in. and above all else trying to establish fajin. explosive sudden power that comes from my feet and shoots up through my entire body, hard to explain. essentially dropping my weight/mind/qi and then allow it to rise suddenly.

 

[clfsean]

nope, and that's why I said I try to focus on taiji stuff while sparring. though I think I can to a degree, because if get in a taiji stance my body thinks taiji, if I get in a bagua stance it thinks bagua, if I get in a xingyi stance it thinks xingyi. so I THINK I can...think is key word there.

I can see that & that's a fallacy I encountered in SD. People learned all these 'stances' & things associated with them & immediately think "i'm doing it!!!" . Not so much. Those three don't have stances per se, but postures. There's a a difference, but that's not the thing. The postures go hand in hand with the other things I mentioned earlier. I can't drop into SanTi Shi & think when I throw a Kuhp/Pao/Chyuhn combo from Lama Pai, it's right. It's wrong from both sides. You have to work the basics of "X" & just that with somebody that has invested themselves into "X" to be able to fully develop you with "X". Not literally "this month we're doing this..." then "this month we're doing this..." and so on with NO grasp on the basics of ...

harsh, but I get the image you are going for. the reason I ask, is I've done this for years anyway. my father taught me boxing, I did karate classes at the ymca, I did high school wrestling for less then a year, I did tkd for about 6 years, then did tien shan pai for 2 years, then back to tkd for 2 years then SD for going on 4.

I don't think I'm a bad martial artist. I feel like I've learned stuff and I mix and match the techniques and styles to make my own mix. so when I learn SD it seems about the same as what I've been doing anyway.

I don't think you're a bad martial artist either. I think you are comfortable in what you're doing. Not to sound all snooty or elitist, but it will, it's not the same as picking a single CMA & fully developing yourself.

Think about it like this... would you rather go to a buffet when you were wanting a steak (aside from the chance of getting food poisoning) where the food is just "meh", or going to Morton's of St Louis & having a steak that literally melts in your mouth because that's all they do? Sure you pay more. Sure you only see beef on the menu. But when you want something specific, is a buffet really the best way to go?

 

[Xue Sheng]

nope, and that's why I said I try to focus on taiji stuff while sparring. though I think I can to a degree, because if get in a taiji stance my body thinks taiji, if I get in a bagua stance it thinks bagua, if I get in a xingyi stance it thinks xingyi. so I THINK I can...think is key word there.

Then you’re a better MAist than I am and I have been at this for 40 years and CMA for over 20 years. When attacked or pushed I tend to do all defense as Taijiquan, it just happens that way, no time to think. When attacking I tend to shift to Xingyiquan, again no time to think, it just happens.

fair enough at least I'm getting a better idea of why people say some of the things they do. I don't mean taiji stances I mean principles. Sinking my weight, allow the attack to come in and deflecting there movement by turn with the technique. "listen" skills when it's at full extent and then follow them back to "uproot" them. using the principles of my whole body, as one side collapses the other side expands. keeping my area and turning instead of folding my arms in. and above all else trying to establish fajin. explosive sudden power that comes from my feet and shoots up through my entire body, hard to explain. essentially dropping my weight/mind/qi and then allow it to rise suddenly.

Real world application you are thinking too much, there is no time to think. The energy for fajin comes from the feet, is directed by the waist and only works properly if you are not tense. Here is the think about taiji in application, you don't look for a place to apply what you know, you wait for it to appear and then apply what you know.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Question

Are there any videos of Shaolin Do taijiquan out there to look at?

 

[blindsage]

fair enough at least I'm getting a better idea of why people say some of the things they do. I don't mean taiji stances I mean principles. Sinking my weight, allow the attack to come in and deflecting there movement by turn with the technique. "listen" skills when it's at full extent and then follow them back to "uproot" them. using the principles of my whole body, as one side collapses the other side expands. keeping my area and turning instead of folding my arms in. and above all else trying to establish fajin. explosive sudden power that comes from my feet and shoots up through my entire body, hard to explain. essentially dropping my weight/mind/qi and then allow it to rise suddenly.

Good, sounds better. I think you would still be better off finding a good Taiji instructor, but it sounds like you're learning good basics. BTW, good fajin is really dangerous, and can seriously hurt someone. There really isn't a nice or soft version. Be careful.

 

[clfsean]

Question

Are there any videos of Shaolin Do taijiquan out there to look at?

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal

 

[Xue Sheng]

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal

Thanks

And I am sorry and do not mean to be harsh but that was pretty awful and as far as I can tell not Chen or Taijiquan

 

[oaktree]

The chen form looks like someone learned from video
Or forgot steps or didnt train long maybe a week or so.
I have seen people with only 2 weeks training look better.
This is one reason it is so important about who studied with who
I feel bad if some one trained with this guy teaching chen taijiquan
For a long time thinking this is taijiquan. Then again he could
Always look at one of the chen people and ask why his form looks
Different.

 

[DaleDugas]

Horrible and horrendous.

No offence, but SD will never recover since its been shown in court that The made up most of the material and stole much from others.
Mixing all this stuff together and trying to explain why it works is a non issue.

Jack of all and master of none.

Thats SD in a nutshell.

No serious skills
No Shenfa

SD seems to be all about fabrications and drinking martial arts coolaid.

 

[clfsean]

Horrible and horrendous.

No offence, but SD will never recover since its been shown in court that The made up most of the material and stole much from others.

This is also very true. Then to add to that, his main school in Lexington put up a letter saying basically "haters gonna hate, things are as WE said"...

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Then you’re a better MAist than I am and I have been at this for 40 years and CMA for over 20 years. When attacked or pushed I tend to do all defense as Taijiquan, it just happens that way, no time to think. When attacking I tend to shift to Xingyiquan, again no time to think, it just happens.



Real world application you are thinking too much, there is no time to think. The energy for fajin comes from the feet, is directed by the waist and only works properly if you are not tense. Here is the think about taiji in application, you don't look for a place to apply what you know, you wait for it to appear and then apply what you know.

well I try I said

I wouldn't say I think as much in application or sparring. I was just breaking down the lessons I've been giving to develop in SD Taijiquan. I get the idea of letting it happen. Fajin is something I can do, just not every time. I'm working on it though

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Good, sounds better. I think you would still be better off finding a good Taiji instructor, but it sounds like you're learning good basics. BTW, good fajin is really dangerous, and can seriously hurt someone. There really isn't a nice or soft version. Be careful.

most certainly, at least with my instructor he focuses on the internal arts, he's done the whole system before but dedicates his study to taiji, bagua and xingyi. From what I can see it, I believe he knows what he is doing. Of course he's being doing it longer then I've been alive :S

 

[Blaze Dragon]

Thanks

And I am sorry and do not mean to be harsh but that was pretty awful and as far as I can tell not Chen or Taijiquan

No your fine, I appreciate at least an honest opinion from first hand observation. I'm sorry I can't remember if you do yang or chen, however as far as the Chen goes why is it aweful?

 

[Xue Sheng]

No your fine, I appreciate at least an honest opinion from first hand observation. I'm sorry I can't remember if you do yang or chen, however as far as the Chen goes why is it aweful?

I am a Yang guy but I have also studied Chen.

It is too relaxed (actually I call it floppy), not using the waist properly or at all, no root, hand movements that look more like fits than Chen taiji, no upper and lower unity. I have trained some Chen; Laojia Yilu, the 18 form and Chansijin also seen both Laojia Yilu and Erlu done by members of the Chen family and that looks nothing much like any of it

 

[clfsean]

No your fine, I appreciate at least an honest opinion from first hand observation. I'm sorry I can't remember if you do yang or chen, however as far as the Chen goes why is it aweful?

The set SD does should look like this...

But due to already mentioned issues, doesn't.

 

[Flying Crane]

kinda weird how the superimposed the ocean background and stuff. Distracting.