Self-Protection From Violence

[Paul_D]

That would be an introductory-level Physics course.

Ok thanks.

The difference would be that if something is an introductory level, then it’s obvious to the students that there is more to come above and beyond the introductory level.

However, if the instructor on a SD course is a martial artist who only possess the physical attributes required for self defence, and makes no mention to his students of the non physical skills required, then it is not necessarily obvious to the student that, rather than being fed the whole cake, they are only being fed a small slice.

The professor isn’t suggesting that 101 is “all you need to know”. Where as the SD instructor is leaving his students with the impression that the physical side is all you need to know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok thanks.

The difference would be that if something is an introductory level, then it’s obvious to the students that there is more to come above and beyond the introductory level.

However, if the instructor on a SD course is a martial artist who only possess the physical attributes required for self defence, and makes no mention to his students of the non physical skills required, then it is not necessarily obvious to the student that, rather than being fed the whole cake, they are only being fed a small slice.

The professor isn’t suggesting that 101 is “all you need to know”. Where as the SD instructor is leaving his students with the impression that the physical side is all you need to know.

Okay, so would you say that same professor is not teaching science, since he's only covering one topic area of science?

I've never met a self-defense instructor who claims they are teaching everything you need to know. Most claim they'll teach you to physically defend yourself, and make no claims beyond that. Every one I've met or talked to does address other areas, at least in passing, to be certain students know those are factors.

I'm not sure where you get your impression of how we teach self-defense classes. Your descriptions do not match what I've experienced.

 

[Paul_D]

I'm not sure where you get your impression of how we teach self-defense classes. Your descriptions do not match what I've experienced.

I can of course only speak of course I have been on. I'm not trying to suggest the ones you teach are like this.

The courses that I have taught, as you can imagine, do not resemble the ones I have been a student on.

 

[Juany118]

Competency for defending against common attacks by common attackers. That wouldn't necessarily include training them to defend against highly-skilled attackers, because most students won't put in the hours required to reach that goal.

I think more importantly most attackers aren't formally trained. I have actually watched people who are formally trained, and who only have sparred with formally trained, get blindsided by a brawler doing things that brawlers do such a bum rush etc. because their experience was limited to other trained fighters.

 

[drop bear]

I think more importantly most attackers aren't formally trained. I have actually watched people who are formally trained, and who only have sparred with formally trained, get blindsided by a brawler doing things that brawlers do such a bum rush etc. because their experience was limited to other trained fighters.

I have actually watched trained fighters knock dudes out in their fives and tens.

 

[Buka]

It seems like a large percentage of our discussions concerning martial arts and self-defense get bogged down in arguments concerning the meaning of "self-defense." Some folks define it broadly, others narrowly. Some insist on a legal definition, others on a practical formulation.

In an effort to avoid these tangents, I am hereby laying out a new term - SPFV (Self Protection From Violence). For the purpose of this thread, SPFV is defined as those behaviors, attributes, and skills which allow an individual to get through the day unharmed by violence.

Important aspects of SPFV would include:

• lifestyle
• target hardening
• threat awareness and avoidance
• de-escalation
• physically fighting if the elements listed above fail to avoid an attack
• escape and evasion
• dealing with legal and emotional consequences of a violent confrontation

Many of the details of what is required for optimal SPFV will vary for individuals in different circumstances. The top risks for a 110 pound high school girl are different from those facing a 210 pound male police officer, as are the best approaches for mitigating those risks.

My questions for anyone who chooses to answer (but especially instructors) are these:

What aspects of SPFV, if any (as listed above) does your martial arts practice/instruction cover, either directly or indirectly?
How does it address those different aspects?
What percentage of training time is spent on those different aspects?
Given that the top SPFV needs are different for people in different circumstances, who is your training ideally suited for, SPFV-wise?
Given the practical impossibility of carrying out rigorous controlled scientific studies on the subject, how do you validate that what you are practicing/teaching is effective for the aspects of SPFV that it is intended to address? How confident are you in that validation?

I'll be writing up my own answers in another comment, but I'll be interested to see everybody else's answers.

On the validation question...

On "Uncertainties".......well said, well thought out.

But, If we eliminate death and taxes, what in life is certain? Not getting up in the morning, not the sunrise, not anything. Do you think Martial Arts, any Martial art, any person, even the greatest, toughest, smartest, luckiest fighter that ever lived has any certainties?

As mentioned/asked in the OP, "how do you validate that what you are practicing/teaching is effective for the aspects of SPFV that it is intended to address"

I was confused at first, and please correct me if I'm still so, but I think it means how do you validate it to yourself. Or, in this case, myself.

I worked it, worked it into the ground. Tested against resisting opponents, the opponents getting bigger, stronger, faster and more savy as we went on. If it's not worked, how could I possibly teach it and sleep at night? Worked with those that came before me, the best in the world in their respective fields, literally. Learned everything that was offered in the years allowed. Worked it, hard. This is not an easy thing to do, nor, probably, should it be.

Worked it with professions that deal in violence on a regular basis, police, jail guards, security forces. Worked some of those jobs for years, got the education first hand.

As instructors, you teach the art(s) that you know. You teach the techniques you know, you use the methods that you know and continue to learn. It's not WHAT the art is, WHAT the techniques are, it's mostly how you teach them and partly how you introduce the people you teach to the dangers of violence that is outside the dojo walls. It must be done slowly and it must be done continuously. The worst place in the whole, wide world to learn that you-don't-know-how-to-fight is an actual fight. The training in a dojo should not be done in a bottle. It should not be a sterile, controlled environment where everything is always hunky dory and a black eye is something that is referred to as "do you remember the time when....?"

I always told my students "you might be defeated, but it will not be because your enemy was fitter than you." I believe Martial training should be hard, I believe if you spend two years in a Martial Arts school you should be more physically fit than you have ever been in your life, at least as fit as the day you came out of boot camp if you were in the military. Very few see it that way, but I always have. I know what some graduates of boot camps are saying right now, "not a chance", but there is. Boot camps are what? Between 8 and twelve weeks depending on the branch? Used to be as far as I recall. Again, what I said for initial Martial training was a time period of two years. Of THAT kind of work.

Students, regardless of who/what they are the first day they walk in, should be vastly different as the years pass. They should be mentally stronger, physically different, more savy, more flexible - in a health/fitness sense, not necessarily a kicking sense - and they should have gone through a progression of hard pressures in their training while maintaining a Martial decorum suitable for any dojo in the world. The whole while - fighting. Learning to fight. They should have learned how to eat, to sleep, to rest, to recharge their bodies and how the body actually works. Not just so theirs can function better, but so an enemy's, should there ever be an enemy, does't work in the way an enemy wants.

As instructors, we always talk about rather running away than fighting. But do you actually teach and train that? I do. If you run, and they chase you, if you get caught, or reach a dead end and are trapped - have you ever started a fighting session completely exhausted, legs wobbly, sweat burning your eyes and your heart feeling like it's about to explode from running and fear? (You might want to think about that because if you're preaching it, you should be training it.)

We talk about defending others as well as ourselves. Do you train that at all? Not only through positional training, but have you ever carried or dragged a person who is heavier than you? Especially if they're not conscious? Everyone should do some "dead weight training" throughout their careers. It's like trying to move a giant sack of water, and it you haven't done it in training, come crunch time is a helluva time for introduction.

We've talked about dealing with multiples over the years here. And we've all shared drills we've used, discussed angles etc. But one we've not broached is what I call "what it can feel like drill". You gear up heavily, chest protector, head gear or motorcycle helmet, cup under your gi, boxers cup over your gi, arm pads, leg pads etc. Then a group swarms you and beats you all over they place. You do the same drill against a wall, and in a corner. The dynamics are different, as are the dynamics of a wall - a hard wall and a sheet rock wall are different. Again, the first time to experience this shouldn't be the first time it happens in a real assault. And if you've ever had the passing thought that "I'd get myself in a corner and fight from there" you should really train it. And NOT with people taking turns kicking at you, but, rather, with people swarming you.

Please, don't picture a naive white belt being subject to this kind of training. It's not something you start with, it's for elite, seasoned Martial Artists who are nearing their black belt rank.

We've trained in rain, snow, mud and inside cars (which sucks, ALWAYS use your friend's car), and through car windows, both striking and grappling. We've trained in all sorts of clothes. Anyone who hasn't is crazy IMO....or wearing their gi twenty four hours a day. Moving in clothes and moving in your favorite gi is not always the same.

Part of defending yourself is having already forged your will. Hyperbole to some, but not to anyone who teaches serious Martial Arts in my opinion. I guarantee every black belt I have ever promoted knows how to fight, has been beaten up many times by others better than them, (the idea of a black belt who has never gotten their *** kicked is so foreign to me, it leaves me speechless) have changed their bodies and their will from something completely different than what it once was, they can all adapt to just about any situation, show others how to do that....and are all ladies and gentlemen to a fault.

I've constantly encouraged my students, especially my advanced students, to train with others, to visit other schools. I was not concerned with losing students, for if they found a school better suited for their skills, physicality, personality or wants - then I've done my job to guide them on their path. I was also not concerned with any of them being anything other than a complete Martial gentleman or lady when they visited elsewhere, because proper decorum was something we always taught. (even if it had to be done with a stick)
Several, especially back in the eighties, I brought to other schools (mostly of my teachers) because I could no longer progress them, they deserved better than the skills I had as a teacher at that time, (they were extremely gifted students and we had been together ten years or more) It was a win win all around. And my teachers loved it.

I've always encouraged them to study anything and everything that might somehow help their Martial studies, psychology, anthropology, military tactics, whatever. I've taught them to utilize resources they have in their private lives.

I'm sure a lot of the instructors here, especially you cagey old bastards, could whoop the dog crap out of my black belts. But pack a lunch, because it's going to take you all day. Besides, when it was over they would beg you to stay and teach them something, anything. That's just how they are.

Boy, am I a long winded old man. And this was the short version.

So, how confident am I in said validation? Very.

 

[stonewall1350]

I think most people neglect the people side.


Edit: add

Sorry. I think most people neglect how to actually HANDLE conflict. Dealing with an irate and irrational person is WAY different than dealing with it in a training setting.


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.

 

[drop bear]

On the validation question...

On "Uncertainties".......well said, well thought out.

But, If we eliminate death and taxes, what in life is certain? Not getting up in the morning, not the sunrise, not anything. Do you think Martial Arts, any Martial art, any person, even the greatest, toughest, smartest, luckiest fighter that ever lived has any certainties?

As mentioned/asked in the OP, "how do you validate that what you are practicing/teaching is effective for the aspects of SPFV that it is intended to address"

I was confused at first, and please correct me if I'm still so, but I think it means how do you validate it to yourself. Or, in this case, myself.

I worked it, worked it into the ground. Tested against resisting opponents, the opponents getting bigger, stronger, faster and more savy as we went on. If it's not worked, how could I possibly teach it and sleep at night? Worked with those that came before me, the best in the world in their respective fields, literally. Learned everything that was offered in the years allowed. Worked it, hard. This is not an easy thing to do, nor, probably, should it be.

Worked it with professions that deal in violence on a regular basis, police, jail guards, security forces. Worked some of those jobs for years, got the education first hand.

As instructors, you teach the art(s) that you know. You teach the techniques you know, you use the methods that you know and continue to learn. It's not WHAT the art is, WHAT the techniques are, it's mostly how you teach them and partly how you introduce the people you teach to the dangers of violence that is outside the dojo walls. It must be done slowly and it must be done continuously. The worst place in the whole, wide world to learn that you-don't-know-how-to-fight is an actual fight. The training in a dojo should not be done in a bottle. It should not be a sterile, controlled environment where everything is always hunky dory and a black eye is something that is referred to as "do you remember the time when....?"

I always told my students "you might be defeated, but it will not be because your enemy was fitter than you." I believe Martial training should be hard, I believe if you spend two years in a Martial Arts school you should be more physically fit than you have ever been in your life, at least as fit as the day you came out of boot camp if you were in the military. Very few see it that way, but I always have. I know what some graduates of boot camps are saying right now, "not a chance", but there is. Boot camps are what? Between 8 and twelve weeks depending on the branch? Used to be as far as I recall. Again, what I said for initial Martial training was a time period of two years. Of THAT kind of work.

Students, regardless of who/what they are the first day they walk in, should be vastly different as the years pass. They should be mentally stronger, physically different, more savy, more flexible - in a health/fitness sense, not necessarily a kicking sense - and they should have gone through a progression of hard pressures in their training while maintaining a Martial decorum suitable for any dojo in the world. The whole while - fighting. Learning to fight. They should have learned how to eat, to sleep, to rest, to recharge their bodies and how the body actually works. Not just so theirs can function better, but so an enemy's, should there ever be an enemy, does't work in the way an enemy wants.

As instructors, we always talk about rather running away than fighting. But do you actually teach and train that? I do. If you run, and they chase you, if you get caught, or reach a dead end and are trapped - have you ever started a fighting session completely exhausted, legs wobbly, sweat burning your eyes and your heart feeling like it's about to explode from running and fear? (You might want to think about that because if you're preaching it, you should be training it.)

We talk about defending others as well as ourselves. Do you train that at all? Not only through positional training, but have you ever carried or dragged a person who is heavier than you? Especially if they're not conscious? Everyone should do some "dead weight training" throughout their careers. It's like trying to move a giant sack of water, and it you haven't done it in training, come crunch time is a helluva time for introduction.

We've talked about dealing with multiples over the years here. And we've all shared drills we've used, discussed angles etc. But one we've not broached is what I call "what it can feel like drill". You gear up heavily, chest protector, head gear or motorcycle helmet, cup under your gi, boxers cup over your gi, arm pads, leg pads etc. Then a group swarms you and beats you all over they place. You do the same drill against a wall, and in a corner. The dynamics are different, as are the dynamics of a wall - a hard wall and a sheet rock wall are different. Again, the first time to experience this shouldn't be the first time it happens in a real assault. And if you've ever had the passing thought that "I'd get myself in a corner and fight from there" you should really train it. And NOT with people taking turns kicking at you, but, rather, with people swarming you.

Please, don't picture a naive white belt being subject to this kind of training. It's not something you start with, it's for elite, seasoned Martial Artists who are nearing their black belt rank.

We've trained in rain, snow, mud and inside cars (which sucks, ALWAYS use your friend's car), and through car windows, both striking and grappling. We've trained in all sorts of clothes. Anyone who hasn't is crazy IMO....or wearing their gi twenty four hours a day. Moving in clothes and moving in your favorite gi is not always the same.

Part of defending yourself is having already forged your will. Hyperbole to some, but not to anyone who teaches serious Martial Arts in my opinion. I guarantee every black belt I have ever promoted knows how to fight, has been beaten up many times by others better than them, (the idea of a black belt who has never gotten their *** kicked is so foreign to me, it leaves me speechless) have changed their bodies and their will from something completely different than what it once was, they can all adapt to just about any situation, show others how to do that....and are all ladies and gentlemen to a fault.

I've constantly encouraged my students, especially my advanced students, to train with others, to visit other schools. I was not concerned with losing students, for if they found a school better suited for their skills, physicality, personality or wants - then I've done my job to guide them on their path. I was also not concerned with any of them being anything other than a complete Martial gentleman or lady when they visited elsewhere, because proper decorum was something we always taught. (even if it had to be done with a stick)
Several, especially back in the eighties, I brought to other schools (mostly of my teachers) because I could no longer progress them, they deserved better than the skills I had as a teacher at that time, (they were extremely gifted students and we had been together ten years or more) It was a win win all around. And my teachers loved it.

I've always encouraged them to study anything and everything that might somehow help their Martial studies, psychology, anthropology, military tactics, whatever. I've taught them to utilize resources they have in their private lives.

I'm sure a lot of the instructors here, especially you cagey old bastards, could whoop the dog crap out of my black belts. But pack a lunch, because it's going to take you all day. Besides, when it was over they would beg you to stay and teach them something, anything. That's just how they are.

Boy, am I a long winded old man. And this was the short version.

So, how confident am I in said validation? Very.

Hoe noes. You wouldn't be describing the mma method there. Would you?

 

[hoshin1600]

On the validation question...

On "Uncertainties".......well said, well thought out.

But, If we eliminate death and taxes, what in life is certain? Not getting up in the morning, not the sunrise, not anything. Do you think Martial Arts, any Martial art, any person, even the greatest, toughest, smartest, luckiest fighter that ever lived has any certainties?

As mentioned/asked in the OP, "how do you validate that what you are practicing/teaching is effective for the aspects of SPFV that it is intended to address"

I was confused at first, and please correct me if I'm still so, but I think it means how do you validate it to yourself. Or, in this case, myself.

I worked it, worked it into the ground. Tested against resisting opponents, the opponents getting bigger, stronger, faster and more savy as we went on. If it's not worked, how could I possibly teach it and sleep at night? Worked with those that came before me, the best in the world in their respective fields, literally. Learned everything that was offered in the years allowed. Worked it, hard. This is not an easy thing to do, nor, probably, should it be.

Worked it with professions that deal in violence on a regular basis, police, jail guards, security forces. Worked some of those jobs for years, got the education first hand.

As instructors, you teach the art(s) that you know. You teach the techniques you know, you use the methods that you know and continue to learn. It's not WHAT the art is, WHAT the techniques are, it's mostly how you teach them and partly how you introduce the people you teach to the dangers of violence that is outside the dojo walls. It must be done slowly and it must be done continuously. The worst place in the whole, wide world to learn that you-don't-know-how-to-fight is an actual fight. The training in a dojo should not be done in a bottle. It should not be a sterile, controlled environment where everything is always hunky dory and a black eye is something that is referred to as "do you remember the time when....?"

I always told my students "you might be defeated, but it will not be because your enemy was fitter than you." I believe Martial training should be hard, I believe if you spend two years in a Martial Arts school you should be more physically fit than you have ever been in your life, at least as fit as the day you came out of boot camp if you were in the military. Very few see it that way, but I always have. I know what some graduates of boot camps are saying right now, "not a chance", but there is. Boot camps are what? Between 8 and twelve weeks depending on the branch? Used to be as far as I recall. Again, what I said for initial Martial training was a time period of two years. Of THAT kind of work.

Students, regardless of who/what they are the first day they walk in, should be vastly different as the years pass. They should be mentally stronger, physically different, more savy, more flexible - in a health/fitness sense, not necessarily a kicking sense - and they should have gone through a progression of hard pressures in their training while maintaining a Martial decorum suitable for any dojo in the world. The whole while - fighting. Learning to fight. They should have learned how to eat, to sleep, to rest, to recharge their bodies and how the body actually works. Not just so theirs can function better, but so an enemy's, should there ever be an enemy, does't work in the way an enemy wants.

As instructors, we always talk about rather running away than fighting. But do you actually teach and train that? I do. If you run, and they chase you, if you get caught, or reach a dead end and are trapped - have you ever started a fighting session completely exhausted, legs wobbly, sweat burning your eyes and your heart feeling like it's about to explode from running and fear? (You might want to think about that because if you're preaching it, you should be training it.)

We talk about defending others as well as ourselves. Do you train that at all? Not only through positional training, but have you ever carried or dragged a person who is heavier than you? Especially if they're not conscious? Everyone should do some "dead weight training" throughout their careers. It's like trying to move a giant sack of water, and it you haven't done it in training, come crunch time is a helluva time for introduction.

We've talked about dealing with multiples over the years here. And we've all shared drills we've used, discussed angles etc. But one we've not broached is what I call "what it can feel like drill". You gear up heavily, chest protector, head gear or motorcycle helmet, cup under your gi, boxers cup over your gi, arm pads, leg pads etc. Then a group swarms you and beats you all over they place. You do the same drill against a wall, and in a corner. The dynamics are different, as are the dynamics of a wall - a hard wall and a sheet rock wall are different. Again, the first time to experience this shouldn't be the first time it happens in a real assault. And if you've ever had the passing thought that "I'd get myself in a corner and fight from there" you should really train it. And NOT with people taking turns kicking at you, but, rather, with people swarming you.

Please, don't picture a naive white belt being subject to this kind of training. It's not something you start with, it's for elite, seasoned Martial Artists who are nearing their black belt rank.

We've trained in rain, snow, mud and inside cars (which sucks, ALWAYS use your friend's car), and through car windows, both striking and grappling. We've trained in all sorts of clothes. Anyone who hasn't is crazy IMO....or wearing their gi twenty four hours a day. Moving in clothes and moving in your favorite gi is not always the same.

Part of defending yourself is having already forged your will. Hyperbole to some, but not to anyone who teaches serious Martial Arts in my opinion. I guarantee every black belt I have ever promoted knows how to fight, has been beaten up many times by others better than them, (the idea of a black belt who has never gotten their *** kicked is so foreign to me, it leaves me speechless) have changed their bodies and their will from something completely different than what it once was, they can all adapt to just about any situation, show others how to do that....and are all ladies and gentlemen to a fault.

I've constantly encouraged my students, especially my advanced students, to train with others, to visit other schools. I was not concerned with losing students, for if they found a school better suited for their skills, physicality, personality or wants - then I've done my job to guide them on their path. I was also not concerned with any of them being anything other than a complete Martial gentleman or lady when they visited elsewhere, because proper decorum was something we always taught. (even if it had to be done with a stick)
Several, especially back in the eighties, I brought to other schools (mostly of my teachers) because I could no longer progress them, they deserved better than the skills I had as a teacher at that time, (they were extremely gifted students and we had been together ten years or more) It was a win win all around. And my teachers loved it.

I've always encouraged them to study anything and everything that might somehow help their Martial studies, psychology, anthropology, military tactics, whatever. I've taught them to utilize resources they have in their private lives.

I'm sure a lot of the instructors here, especially you cagey old bastards, could whoop the dog crap out of my black belts. But pack a lunch, because it's going to take you all day. Besides, when it was over they would beg you to stay and teach them something, anything. That's just how they are.

Boy, am I a long winded old man. And this was the short version.

So, how confident am I in said validation? Very.

In all seriousness, can I print that out and frame it?