Self-Defense???

[Danny T]

Because you have nothing to learn about self-defense, home defense, a car jacking, a kidnapping, how about a automotive self-defense evasive driving or any other number of possibilities?

 

[Hanzou]

Because you have nothing to learn about self-defense, home defense, a car jacking, a kidnapping, how about a automotive self-defense evasive driving or any other number of possibilities?

No, frankly I don't. However, I am a 6'2, 215lb male. So there isn't much I need to worry about.

Now if I was a woman, that would be a different story entirely.

 

[Danny T]

No, frankly I don't. However, I am a 6'2, 215lb male. So there isn't much I need to worry about.

Now that's funny!
Yes, 6'2" males need little self defense training. They are intuitive and are already knowledgeable in most all aspects of self-defense. The two guys that train with us who are over 6'2", we call them six four and six five,are wasting their time training in several of our self-defensive programs. We also have several other over 6 footers as well.
Not certain they if they are 6'2". Must be either under or over cause they feel they need the training.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No, frankly I don't. However, I am a 6'2, 215lb male. So there isn't much I need to worry about.

You should worry!

 

[Drose427]

You should worry!

Why? He's 3 inches taller and barely 20 lbs heavier than the average individual man! Everyone just cowers apparently

 

[LibbyW]

No, frankly I don't. However, I am a 6'2, 215lb male. So there isn't much I need to worry about.

Now if I was a woman, that would be a different story entirely.

Oh dear....seriously?...there are still people that think like this in the world? I thought evolution had sorted out this type of thing

 

[Argus]

No, frankly I don't. However, I am a 6'2, 215lb male. So there isn't much I need to worry about.

Now if I was a woman, that would be a different story entirely.

I am a 5'8 125lb male.

Put a knife or a gun in my hand. Do you need to worry about someone my size now?

How about me? Do I need to worry about training if I have a firearm, or another weapon, or am I just good to go given my advantage?

 

[Hanzou]

I am a 5'8 125lb male.

Put a knife or a gun in my hand. Do you need to worry about someone my size now?

How about me? Do I need to worry about training if I have a firearm, or another weapon, or am I just good to go given my advantage?

And do I really need to learn self defense to deal with someone who pulls a gun or knife on me? If someone is armed and trying to mug you, toss them your wallet. If someone wants your car, toss them your car keys and get away.

There, I just saved you money learning "self defense".

Unlike the firearm and the knife, I can take my size anywhere I go. If I were your size, I'd enroll in a good martial arts program and call it a day. I would also invest in a good pair of running shoes. Preferably Nike.

 

[Argus]

And do I really need to learn self defense to deal with someone who pulls a gun or knife on me? If someone is armed and trying to mug you, toss them your wallet. If someone wants your car, toss them your car keys and get away.

There, I just saved you money learning "self defense".

Unlike the firearm and the knife, I can take my size anywhere I go. If I were your size, I'd enroll in a good martial arts program and call it a day.

Tossing your wallet doesn't fix all situations, though it's certainly a prudent move in some. I might just shoot you anyway -- happens more than you might think. But perhaps I just took something you said as an insult, and thought it would be a good idea to crack your head open with a nearby inanimate object. Or maybe a confrontation is what I'm out to find. Maybe you're just sitting in your car, with your doors unlocked, and I open the door and jump in. Or perhaps, I don't even want a confrontation at all, and am just looking to rummage through your house or car while you're gone. You show up, I get spooked, and shoot at you.

These kinds of things aren't hypothetical situations. They happen all of the time. I've even had one of them happen to me personally. In broad daylight. In a "safe" area of town. And I was simply lucky. I could have handled the situation in a much better way than I did, but I was off my guard and had never given it any forethought. That could have cost me dearly.

The question is, could you avoid, prevent, de-escelate, physically handle or escape the situation if things go south, and deal properly with the legal after-math of any of those circumstances should the outcome require it? You can't assume you know what is going to happen, or even what you will do.

 

[Tez3]

Old proverb...the bigger they are the harder the fall.

When I was working we dealt with very strong, big fit Fijian soldiers who could be very aggressive when drunk. They can be brought down with only a little more effort than anyone else. Always a mistake to assume that size is everything.

 

[Hanzou]

Tossing your wallet doesn't fix all situations, though it's certainly a prudent move in some. I might just shoot you anyway -- happens more than you might think. But perhaps I just took something you said as an insult, and thought it would be a good idea to crack your head open with a nearby inanimate object. Or maybe a confrontation is what I'm out to find. Maybe you're just sitting in your car, with your doors unlocked, and I open the door and jump in. Or perhaps, I don't even want a confrontation at all, and am just looking to rummage through your house or car while you're gone. You show up, I get spooked, and shoot at you.

These kinds of things aren't hypothetical situations. They happen all of the time. I've even had one of them happen to me personally. In broad daylight. In a "safe" area of town. And I was simply lucky. I could have handled the situation in a much better way than I did, but I was off my guard and had never given it any forethought. That could have cost me dearly.

The question is, could you avoid, prevent, de-escelate, physically handle or escape the situation if things go south, and deal properly with the legal after-math of any of those circumstances should the outcome require it? You can't assume you know what is going to happen, or even what you will do.

There's no way to know for certain. We'll simply have to cross that bridge when we get there. You can't train for every possible scenario, and frankly even if you did that, you wouldn't be prepared for every possible scenario. Considering my size and MA training, I'm sure I could handle a good deal of physical confrontations if things go south. I'm also a pretty happy go lucky person, and have talked my way out of many bad situations.

In the end, I'm not going to live my life always looking over my shoulder, or gearing up for a life or death struggle if a stranger approaches me in a parking lot. That's simply paranoia, and I refuse to pay someone money to make me paranoid. I've lived in rough neighborhoods, I've gone to dive bars full of bikers, or thug wannabes. Never had any problems. Listening to some of those self defense types, you'd think we're in some kind of war or something. In reality, that simply isn't the case.

Now if I were a woman, that would be a different situation, because women are more likely to be victimized than men. Predators would only attack me if they want something of monetary value. Predators would attack a woman for a completely different set of reasons.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But what is self-defense? Is it fighting or is it much more? Most all MA schools, gyms...etc claim to teach self-defense; do they?

Claiming to teach SD and actually teaching it are two entirely different things. One is marketing, the other is practical/tactical and experience. Self defense begins long before the fight begins and seeks to avoid the fight in the first place or at least mitigate the consequences. As mentioned earlier, there is the legal aspect. How many schools teach the legal aspect? How many schools teach the aftermath of an attack i.e. contact with police, medical self aid or aid to others? How many teach avoidance, escape, evasion or verbal de-esculation? How about weapons and improvised weapons?

I always go back to the philosophical conversation between Earl and Vale on top of the boulder while the huge mutant underground worm circles waiting to eat them;

Earl: We need a plan.

Vale: I say we just make a run for it.

Earl: Run!?! Running's not a plan...running is what you do when the plan fails!

Same with self defense i.e. fighting isn't the plan...fighting is what you do when the plan fails. The plan (self defense) begins before you leave the house. So no, most schools don't know what self defense is or what it takes to achieve it, much less teach it.

For the purposes of this thread we can define self-defense as the strategies, principles, tactics and techniques to defend oneself and/or loved ones from and attack which can cause bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death.

To begin with, most types of training revolve around some/most/all of the following considerations:

• Has a referee that enforces rules that both parties are required to abide by for the match.
  
• The match is in a well-lit, dry, level, soft venue.
  
• The opponent is unarmed.
  
• The opponent is alone with no chance others will join in.
  
• Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc.
  
• The opponent isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you.
  
• You get a break in-between rounds to catch your breath, get a drink, get some advice or a pep talk.
  
• If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away.
  
• There is often an incentive or reward for competing and/or winning such as rank advancement, a prize or maybe cash.

As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;

• Situational awareness i.e. be aware of your surroundings.
  
• Factors such as avoidance, evasion, escape and de-escalation need to be taken into consideration and trained for where appropriate.
  
• Where there is no referee enforcing rules.
  
• You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage.
  
• There are no rules.
  
• There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you.
  
• The assault can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car, your bedroom, in the woods etc. It will likely occur in dim light conditions in any type of weather.
  
• The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed.
  
• The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in.
  
• There is no safety gear, but likely a plethora of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc.
  
• The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
  
• To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc)
  
• The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes and is appropriate to the situation.

When looking at the difference in training methodologies, consider for the student and scenario;

• Do they always 'go for the knock-out', for points, for a submission? Is so, they've limited there response options.
  
• Do they have the option and/or opportunity to avoid or evade the potential conflice. Or escape or practice an verbal de-escalation skills?
  
• Do they have the option of using an improvised weapon?
  
• Does there opponent have the option of pulling a weapon (planned or improvised)?
  
• Does there opponent have the option of having his buddies jump in to help?
  
• Is the student required to observe certain rules?
  
• Do your students always train inside the Dojang? Are opportunities provided to train inside a vehicle, stairs, elevator, hallway, small room, on grass, on asphalt, on a sloping or wet or slippery surface?
  
• Do your students always where their uniform? Are they familar with what it would be like to be wearing tight clothing, foot wear, shorts and a T-shirt, a dress etc? Tt is one thing to be warmed up and stretched out and wearing loose clothing in the Dojang. It is quite another to try it in a dress in high heels, a pair of tight jeans, with a handful of groceries, a duty belt etc when you're not warmed up and stretched out.
  
• Have they ever trained in dim light conditions?
  
• Have they trained with visual/auditory distractions?
  
• Do we always use a closed fist when striking at the head while wearing gloves and padded helmets? A blow to the head with a fist in a SD situation may not be the wisest tactic. The chance of injuring the hand on someone’s head is fairly substantial even with a well-placed strike. That is why boxer as an example tape their hands and wear gloves. I'll say it again; the chance of injuring your hand on someone's head/face is fairly substantial. If this occurs, depending on the severity of the injury, it could very well limit your options for further SD. Anyone here ever try to manipulate a weapon with broken knuckles? Or a cell phone, or car keys? I've broken a knuckle before and my range of motion in that hand was limited for an extended period of time. Given that manual dexterity is already limited while under duress, you've just made it even harder by busting a knuckle or two, or spraining your wrist on someone's face. And there is no way to know ahead of time whether or not he'll actually be knocked out.
  
  This also doesn't touch on the possibility of blood borne pathogens the bad guy may be carrying. And now you've put yourself in a position of cutting your knuckles on his teeth or 'bleeding' him from the mouth or nose.

Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the state statutes of force and deadly force? In consideration like bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death? Subject factors? What a reasonable person would do in the same situation? Are you required to retreat in your state? Does your state have a 'Castle Doctrine'? An instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but providing the resources for the student to check into it and touching on some of the topics during class time.

Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the O.O.D.A. loop? Fight or flight? Flinch resonse? Adrenaline responses such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities? Considerations can include;

• Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
  
• A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
  
• A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, 'can' immobilize even an EDP (emotionally disturbed person) even if strikes fail and if properly applied.
  
• Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.
  
• The attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the attacker and the least advantageous to us. We may be tired, sick, distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation.
  
• Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold. And even being physically big isn't always a deterent.

Physical conditioning is also helpful during training, or at least encouraging it. Being physically fit can help us in several areas of a SD situation. It can also help if an injury has been sustained.

 

[Argus]

There's no way to know for certain. We'll simply have to cross that bridge when we get there. You can't train for every possible scenario, and frankly even if you did that, you wouldn't be prepared for every possible scenario. Considering my size and MA training, I'm sure I could handle a good deal of physical confrontations if things go south. I'm also a pretty happy go lucky person, and have talked my way out of many bad situations.

In the end, I'm not going to live my life always looking over my shoulder, or gearing up for a life or death struggle if a stranger approaches me in a parking lot. That's simply paranoia, and I refuse to pay someone money to make me paranoid. I've lived in rough neighborhoods, I've gone to dive bars full of bikers, or thug wannabes. Never had any problems. Listening to some of those self defense types, you'd think we're in some kind of war or something. In reality, that simply isn't the case.

Now if I were a woman, that would be a different situation, because women are more likely to be victimized than men. Predators would only attack me if they want something of monetary value. Predators would attack a woman for a completely different set of reasons.

Well, I completely agree with your overall sentiment. Some people certainly do overplay SD concerns. But I do not believe that one needs to live in constant paranoia, nor train for every possible situation in order to be more prepared. A lot of it comes down to understanding, awareness, mindset, and habits - general concepts that you can apply across the board and in more situations than just potential violent encounters.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In the end, I'm not going to live my life always looking over my shoulder, or gearing up for a life or death struggle if a stranger approaches me in a parking lot. That's simply paranoia, and I refuse to pay someone money to make me paranoid

Then why are you in the arts if not to prepare yourself for such situations if they occure

[

Listening to some of those self defense types, you'd think we're in some kind of war or something. In reality, that simply isn't the case.

Obviously you have not walked or lived in some of the areas I have where shootings and knifing happened on the streets and parking lots at least once a week. Gangs shooting at anyone wearing the wrong color of beatin thee hell out of anyone not of their ethnic background who dared to walk on their streets. It did not matter how big or small you where if you where an outsider you could be considered fair game. Yes it was a war for some of these people in their mind thats why many of them are dead or in jail today

 

[shesulsa]

Self defense is a way of living. It is a choice of clothing and of what you carry - not just weapons, but what's in your wallet, purse, pocket. Self-defense is how you walk from one room to the other, how you answer your phone, how you step outside, how you drive. It is where you sit in a restaurant, what kind of shoes you wear, how you talk to the people around you. Self defense is recognizing potential dangers and doing your best to avoid them. It is knowing how, when and with whom to form alliances in territory such as Tshadowchaser referred to above. It's about where you get your mail and what kind of committment you have to living and dying.

Self-defense is a 3-year-old with no training thrashing about when clutched by a stranger. Self-defense is an 80-year-old woman beating the crap out of an attacker with her purse, hands, shoe, whatever she can get her hands on. It is about installing two peep-holes in your door - one for you and one for your children.

It is about reading people and anticipating potential danger. It is knowing how to de-escalate someone and reserving your "ammo" for only when you need it. It is about the act, the game, the attitude.

It is about law, which is always about spin and perception. It is about your history and propensity for illegal activities. It is about your citizenship and your family.

If it must come to combat, it's about distance, timing, weapons, intent, ability and opportunity. THAT is when it is about training and preparation.

As to our social evolution ... as long as humans live, there will always be terrible people. And as long as there are terrible people, there will be the unfortunate need to subdue them.

 

[K-man]

Last week in Krav class we were talking SD and not looking like a victim. I walked down the line, "Yeah, I wouldn't pick you. You have tats so you must be tough." "Mmm, you look like a fit young bugger, I won't pick, you", etc. etc. until I got to a big guy possibly 6'3" or 6'4". "Bloody hell! I wouldn't pick you. You're too big." We discussed the idea that anyone challenging you had already decided they could beat you and so on. At the end of the discussion the big guy, ex MMA out of interest, said to me, "You know, guys try to pick me all the time". Let me say, he certainly isn't the type of guy I would be choosing to fight but just goes to show, size doesn't always protect you from violence and anyone who reckons they don't need SD skills is a fool.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Last week in Krav class we were talking SD and not looking like a victim. I walked down the line, "Yeah, I wouldn't pick you. You have tats so you must be tough." "Mmm, you look like a fit young bugger, I won't pick, you", etc. etc. until I got to a big guy possibly 6'3" or 6'4". "Bloody hell! I wouldn't pick you. You're too big." We discussed the idea that anyone challenging you had already decided they could beat you and so on. At the end of the discussion the big guy, ex MMA out of interest, said to me, "You know, guys try to pick me all the time". Let me say, he certainly isn't the type of guy I would be choosing to fight but just goes to show, size doesn't always protect you from violence and anyone who reckons they don't need SD skills is a fool.

Certainly the setting and motivation behind the attack will be factors (as well as the possible presence of what we call "beer muscles"...), it's also true that there are those who will be far more confrontational to someone they perceive as a threat or challenge.
I'm 6'1" and 220. And there are absolutely people who will want to fight with me but who will be totally chill if we send in a woman or a smaller man. And of course, there are those who will be a complete douchnozzle to someone they think they can intimidate, but chill when it's me.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna,
What I wrote was:
"These are but a few examples of forms of self defense that have nothing to do with fighting or the marital arts. Yet all could be taught within the martial arts or a self-defense class.

Self-defense is far more than fighting, though fighting when justified can be a form of self-defense. Simply getting up and leaving can also be a very effective form.
There are many others, thing is that self defense is much more that the confines of fighting or the martial arts."

My original question was to ask what others defined as self-defense because from my experience in the martial arts world most teach fighting or fighting back as self defense. In my opinion fighting has very little to do with self defense and 'if' a martial school is claiming to teach self defense but only instructs/teaches/trains fighting or fighting back then all they are teaching is fighting. Self defense is far more than fighting.

Danny while I understand the point you are making I wonder why you think fighting has little to do with SD? If you mean to define fighting as trading blow for blow then at some time in defence of myself or others is it not possible that (when other more preferable options are absent) I may be forced to do just this very trading blow for blow? This is the real world we are talking surely and not the sterility of a forum discussion? What do you think? Jx

 

[Hanzou]

Then why are you in the arts if not to prepare yourself for such situations if they occure

For a variety of reasons. Self defense is actually pretty low on the list. However, part of the reason I do it is to teach it to my wife and daughters.

Obviously you have not walked or lived in some of the areas I have where shootings and knifing happened on the streets and parking lots at least once a week.

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, nor know anything about where or how I grew up.

Nice assumption though.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If self defense is so low on your list what exactly are you teaching your wife and daughters.
Sorry if I presumed that you had not walked the streets I did or that you had not walked similar ones but if you had you would have know that in many cities the gangs are at war and outsiders are targets