self defense scenario

[Manny]

Today was a very bussy working day, I feel very mentally tired, I hadn't have the chance to go out for dinner, my stomach was empty and I was very lazy, very simple, my mind was disconected.

Finally I could go out to eat something, I took a bus to go to the market and did not realice I was in this the only passanger and three tug guys and the driver. The buses on my city are crap compared wth the ones you have in USA, the buses are like a school bus, very narrow. Sudenly I woke up and see one 350 fat man sitting by the door, another guy almost the same weight who has estensive tatoos in his bodybuilder arms blocking my way near by the driver (who was something like a hog too) and one more guy in the back of the bus. Bells and whistles start to ring in my head like spiderman, the bus was ridding very slow and I could not take my eyes from the guy I had in the back of the bus, I was alone.

What would I do if these guys tried to nail me? the first thing I thought was to smash the glass window and fly away no matter the cuts, the sapce was so narrow that using my kicks will be not possible, simply the three guys will drop me in the floor and kicked me viciusly, my mind was running at the speed of light,I could feel the elctricity runing down my spine, my senses were crazy.... What the f.... I said so I prepare to jump from the bus but at that time a señorita was coming inside the bus,blocking the exit so I sat and keep an eye in every momevement the large guys were doing...... seconds......more seconds... finally the buss arrived to the market and jumped off the bus.

As you know my city is in a war beetwen drug cartels, this is the first time I felt this way... and I think if those guys would want to beat me I will be in troubles, fighting in very tight spaces is something horrible, believe me, one thing is to do some wrestling with a partner in the dojo and other is wrestling for your life with 3 or 4 large men.

Maybe I freak myself without reasson but I thanx God nothing hapened.

What would you do in the same situation?

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sometimes no amount of training will save you unfortunately. Just in the last 12 months a mate of mine (6th dan, 30 years continuos training) was king hit walking in town one night, and when he fell to the ground he was beaten quite badly. Another friend of mine who is a competitive boxer who I wouldnt want to mess with, was at a club and some big islander boys were harassing his wife so he went over, grabbed her hand, excused himself and walked away. A couple of minutes later one of the guys grabbed him while another two punched his face in. Unfortunately sometimes these things are unavoidable despite any amount of training.

 

[Cyriacus]

Id have done what You did; Except that ive found in the past that when Presented with a Violent Scenario - My Mind wants to Fight. My Brain tells Me thats not such a wise idea.

This is also why being reliant on Kicks can have some downsides.

Now, assuming I were to be in that Situation, only an Engagement took place.
The biggest issue is your Head. You do not want to be Punched in the Head as soon as it starts. You will right away be at a disadvantage.
Therefore, raising My hands to My Chest in a Submissive Gesture would be a start. This makes you seem Weak. Like a Victim.
They wont take you to be much of a Threat, but this has served a very, very important end.

Imagine this is the Bus:

== ==
......U
== ==
@.U
== ==
....U
== ==
( )
\ /
______

= is Chairs. Im only assuming the length of the Bus.
@ is You.
U is Them.
. is Empty Space.

Now, heres why this is where you WANT to be. Optionally;
== ==
...U
== ==
@.U
== ==
...U
== ==
( )
\ /
______

Because now, only the one in front of you is the big Threat.
You want to back right up, and he will come forward.
Now, you have about 2-5 Seconds to dispatch him, before either of the others can try to hit over the chairs.
Since you appear submissive, something like a Front Kick to the Knee followed by a Throat Thrust; Or a Short Hook to the Floating Rib followed by an Uppercut to the Jaw, I believe is your best chance to repel that first Opponent.
Now, we get into assumption work. The above is a likely Scenario.
What happens next has alot of variables.

In fact, I wont even go into that.

Suffice to say, what id have done with the first guy, is forced him into very Close Quarters. From there, his size isnt as relevant, since it infact obscures how much of me he can see. And even if he were to prevail - What other options do you have if it gets to that stage? Curl up in a ball and plead?

 

[David43515]

3 vs 1 in a confined space is a very real situation, and one you`re not likely to come away from unhurt no matter how long you train. Most cops will tell you that in a mugging situation there`s usually a weapon involved, or you`re out numbered, or both. That`s why in the old days even the best emptyhand martial artists also trained with and carried weapons. Nobody likes to think of having to use a weapon on someone else, but I like it better than the idea of getting my head kicked in by 3 huge guys. Or 4 if you might ever have to worry that the driver is in on it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

As my instructor says - "the only time people defeat multiple attackers in in kung fu movies".

 

[msmitht]

Agree it would not end well for you...however, I would start by disabling the guy between myself and the exit. An eye strike/throat strike/elbow to face should do it. Use him as a barrier between you and the other 2(which are behind you?). Get to the front of the bus and get off. A strong push/stomp kick would help if rushed but you are outnumbered. The lack of space could work to your advantage but getting out should be #1 priority.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think the first thing to do is find a good defensive position wherever and whenever. For instance. Only person on a bus? Take a seat closest to the door. Preferably so only one person could block your escape. Or, if there is more than one potential threat, position yourself so one person attacking you would be in the way of others trying to get to you. Narrow corridors / aisles can serve this purpose. This is one reason the 300 Spartans at Thermopolye were successful. The pass was so narrow it did not matter that there were 10,000 Spartans if only a dozen or so could be in the frnt line with any effectiveness.

Other Scenarios- Movie Theater - I always take the aisle seat. Restaurant - I always face the door so I can see what's coming in.

Crowded elevator, one of the last In? I typicaly face the people, not the door. (Freaks some people out.) First one in and elevator may get crowded I move to a corner near the door. In a multiple possible threat scenario, corners are good since the angle of attack against you is reduced from a possible 360 degrees to 90 degrees.

 

[StudentCarl]

The above comments about positioning yourself are smart, as is avoidance when you can. Having a weapon and some skill getting it into action quickly is the fallback. Space is time is safety, and attackers use ruses to achieve surprise...so you want them as far away as possible. Quality weapons training programs for the real world include training in accessing your weapon in close quarters, up to and including the clinch. A weapon you can't access is just extra weight or worse if taken from you. This must be trained. Take care my friend.

Carl

 

[Manny]

3 vs 1 in a confined space is a very real situation, and one you`re not likely to come away from unhurt no matter how long you train. Most cops will tell you that in a mugging situation there`s usually a weapon involved, or you`re out numbered, or both. That`s why in the old days even the best emptyhand martial artists also trained with and carried weapons. Nobody likes to think of having to use a weapon on someone else, but I like it better than the idea of getting my head kicked in by 3 huge guys. Or 4 if you might ever have to worry that the driver is in on it.

I own some firearms however concealed carry is not an option, it's against the law in my country. It's funny but the nar gangs carry AK-47, even Barrets .50 and grenade lauchers and fragmentation grenades and the regular citizen, the one who pays taxes the everyday working man CAN'T carry a conceladed revolver or semiautomatic pistols even tiny mouse guns!!!

When I use jeans I carry a clip pocket knove in my front pocket, but lately I've wearin slacks so the only thing inside me is a small gents pocket knife. Maybe a kubotan will be a nice option.

The people think because one's is a martial artist or even a black belt one can safely and easily fight one,two or three guys and win.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Agree it would not end well for you...however, I would start by disabling the guy between myself and the exit. An eye strike/throat strike/elbow to face should do it. Use him as a barrier between you and the other 2(which are behind you?). Get to the front of the bus and get off. A strong push/stomp kick would help if rushed but you are outnumbered. The lack of space could work to your advantage but getting out should be #1 priority.

Yes but remeber I was seated and one of the guy was seated by the door and the other guy was very close to me standing, maybe a strong push but who knows.

Yesterday I learnt something.... if the bus is almost empty with only three tough guys inside better let the bus pass by, there will be another one coming, this is street self defense too, and always be in yellow condition.

I am not superman or bullet or stab proof.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I think the first thing to do is find a good defensive position wherever and whenever. For instance. Only person on a bus? Take a seat closest to the door. Preferably so only one person could block your escape. Or, if there is more than one potential threat, position yourself so one person attacking you would be in the way of others trying to get to you. Narrow corridors / aisles can serve this purpose. This is one reason the 300 Spartans at Thermopolye were successful. The pass was so narrow it did not matter that there were 10,000 Spartans if only a dozen or so could be in the frnt line with any effectiveness.

Other Scenarios- Movie Theater - I always take the aisle seat. Restaurant - I always face the door so I can see what's coming in.

Crowded elevator, one of the last In? I typicaly face the people, not the door. (Freaks some people out.) First one in and elevator may get crowded I move to a corner near the door. In a multiple possible threat scenario, corners are good since the angle of attack against you is reduced from a possible 360 degrees to 90 degrees.

Thank you, good tactics, as you do in a restorant or bar I set with my back to the wall, near the exit or emergency exit and this way I can see if s...... is coming, the thing of the elevator is a good thing to do, a strong sight is a good deterrant too.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Manny,
I'm not aware of the weapons laws where you are. There are small, concealable fixed blade knives that are much faster to get into action than folders. Folders take much practice to use reliably one-handed, and everything is harder when someone is rushing at you and your adrenaline kicks in. Other tools include pepper spray--can affect vision and give you a second to get away or get a weapon; impact weapons like saps--an example is a heavy brass lock on a cord or key chain. IMO, a quickly accessible blade and pepper spray give you options if you aren't carrying a firearm--I recommend carrying both.
You may find people in your area who offer training in this area.

 

[Cyriacus]

As my instructor says - "the only time people defeat multiple attackers in in kung fu movies".

Heres the Problem: If he were Attacked in there, due to the Closed Quarters, Escape would be Impossible.

Therefore, making do with the Circumstances to minimize Injury becomes Optimal.

 

[StudentCarl]

Heres the Problem: If he were Attacked in there, due to the Closed Quarters, Escape would be Impossible.

Therefore, making do with the Circumstances to minimize Injury becomes Optimal.

Maybe I read this wrong, but what I get from it is a negative and defensive mindset. If attacked in close quarters you must become the cornered wildcat--corner one and you will wish you hadn't. An attack on you is an attack on your wife and children because of what you are to them. Prepare you mind to switch on the cornered animal and switch off the civilized man. You must train this.

Don't think about yourself or you're dead. Get angry and act brutally.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thugs can be brutal. But they usually anticipate their prey being ineffective even if they fight back. They often seem to enjoy inflicting pain and injury. I would not have wanted to be in your situation.

But if I were, I have always thought that I would want to take them on as separately as possible. If I am under attack I would try to face one but attack the one behind me. He is in the same narrow isle. A kick to the knees is going to be hard to avoid. If there is another behind him, he has to get past the one with the bad knee to get to me. Now the one I faced can't get help as quick and kicks or eye gouges may work. Two down, the third isn't going to want any part of me if he can avoid it and stay friends with the other two. But if I can take the first two down, the third will be at a disadvantage, probably hesitant, and hopefully more vulnerable.

But that is easy to say. People are unpredictable. They may not respond as you hope, and be able to avoid you, or not be as disabled as you would have thought. It is impossible for any of us to give you an iron-clad garauntee that a particulare set of tactics will work.

If I were you, I would continue to go over this in your mind and continue to consider what you could do if you had to. Consider all your best power moves working well, and not working at all. And then what do you do? And also consider what you might be able to do to difuse the situation, perhaps by engaging the in conversation about tatoos or something.

I hope I never get into your situation, and that you never do again either.

Stay safe friend!

 

[Manny]

Thugs can be brutal. But they usually anticipate their prey being ineffective even if they fight back. They often seem to enjoy inflicting pain and injury. I would not have wanted to be in your situation.

But if I were, I have always thought that I would want to take them on as separately as possible. If I am under attack I would try to face one but attack the one behind me. He is in the same narrow isle. A kick to the knees is going to be hard to avoid. If there is another behind him, he has to get past the one with the bad knee to get to me. Now the one I faced can't get help as quick and kicks or eye gouges may work. Two down, the third isn't going to want any part of me if he can avoid it and stay friends with the other two. But if I can take the first two down, the third will be at a disadvantage, probably hesitant, and hopefully more vulnerable.

But that is easy to say. People are unpredictable. They may not respond as you hope, and be able to avoid you, or not be as disabled as you would have thought. It is impossible for any of us to give you an iron-clad garauntee that a particulare set of tactics will work.

If I were you, I would continue to go over this in your mind and continue to consider what you could do if you had to. Consider all your best power moves working well, and not working at all. And then what do you do? And also consider what you might be able to do to difuse the situation, perhaps by engaging the in conversation about tatoos or something.

I hope I never get into your situation, and that you never do again either.

Stay safe friend!

The human body and mostly the minds is a misterius thing, I know of very capable men who in the middle of an life or death situation can freeze, and also know a pettite woman (her name is Claudia) who fought for her life againt a mugger with a large screwdriver, she fight like hell (she is not into the martial arts) disarmed the man and could walk away from his home for help, she needed nose surgery but she survived.

The fact is I felt unconfortable and in somehow frightened but nothing went wrong, I just wanted to share with you some feelings and poits of view, I know in an open field I will fight like hell trowing punches and kicks but surrended by three large men in a confined space..... well .... who knows.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

I suggest training for confined spaces then. Are you satisfied trusting your defense to a "who knows" my friend? Please take care.

 

[Cyriacus]

Maybe I read this wrong, but what I get from it is a negative and defensive mindset. If attacked in close quarters you must become the cornered wildcat--corner one and you will wish you hadn't. An attack on you is an attack on your wife and children because of what you are to them. Prepare you mind to switch on the cornered animal and switch off the civilized man. You must train this.

Don't think about yourself or you're dead. Get angry and act brutally.

...Thats My View, more or less, Yes.

Not quite how id put it, but Yes.
I believe that Training to just run away if youre attacked by anything remotely threatening is silly.
Since you wont always have a chance, or say in the matter.

In fact, most of the time you pretty much wont.
Ive heard of more Fights occuring Indoors and othersuch, than in big open Streets.

 

[ballen0351]

I know you said you can't but that why I Always have a gun on me someplace where ever I go. Work, church, dinner, dojo, my kids football games ect....You not having that option I would have found the fastest way out looking for emergency exits or windows I could smash and get thru and mentally prepared to use it if I had to. No shame in running away and living to fight another day.I always play the what if game with myself. Everywhere I go I say what if things go bad here what are my options. So god forbid it does go bad at least you have a plan

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Heres the Problem: If he were Attacked in there, due to the Closed Quarters, Escape would be Impossible.

Therefore, making do with the Circumstances to minimize Injury becomes Optimal.

I agree, and that is why training to fight multiple attackers is necessary. Also tactics as discusses by earl weiss are invaluable. Still though, very few people will have much success against multiple attackers and students should be made aware of this. Personally, Id run toward the attacker who has the best chance to run behind him. Id launch myself at him with a jump front kick and hit him in the solar plexus/ribs area with everything I had hoping to literally 'run over the top of him'. Once I land, Id run for my life, I am a long distance runner and I will back myself to feel fatigued from running long after anyone chasing me will. Obviously in manny's situation that probably wouldnt have been possible. As a good friend said to me once - "I won my last fight by about 2 kilometers". thats my theory, staying around to fight multiple attackers is not a good idea at all.