Self-Defense laws in your state?

[Pepsiman]

No. It's not. Self Defense is Self Defense and Justifiable Deadly Force is Justifiable regardless of what deadly force was used. It really isn't all that hard. Don't be an Initial Aggressor. Walk away when you reasonably can while maintaining your own safety and that of other innocent third parties you may be responsible for. Only use Deadly Force when there is a reasonably articulable threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or a third party which you know to be innocent.

It just ain't that hard.

You're preaching to the choir on this one, my friend lol. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending yourself if you have to, morally speaking. However, I don't think that means you'd be exempt of legal consequence.

If you were to use lethal force, wouldn't you have to prove in court that said lethal force was justified? Even legally-speaking, there's always a possibility of your case being deemed "imperfect self-defense".

Don't take legal advice from people on the internet. Go find a lawyer or legal advice in your state. Pay for it if you must.

Wasn't really asking for any, but you aren't wrong. Legal advice isn't really hard to come by if you know where to look, so I do agree that people contact a state lawyer if needed.

Don't take legal advice from Wikipedia. That's even worse than taking legal advice from strangers on the internet who may or may not have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

I think you're confusing Wikipedia for WebMD, here. :

In particular ignore meanderings about Stand Your Ground laws because the vast majority of people blabbering about it have no frigg'n clew what they're talking about. The U.S. Firearms Community is slightly more clewed in than most others (including, I've found, "martial artists") but even then there are misunderstandings.

Around 3/5ths of the U.S. has some form of Stand Your Ground law. Most of them are similar but some of them are just a bit different. Ohio is an example.

Which is why this thread exists. Laws can be different, whether slightly or vastly, so I wanted to hear from people on the forum. So far I've seen good discussions, here.

Go talk to a lawyer or find your states major firearms-for-self-defense advocacy organization, such as the Buckeye Firearms Association here in Ohio, and find out their information on it.

Ignore everything else.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't live in Ohio, but "Buckeye Firearms Association" is a cool name for an organization. In my case, I've got Home - Florida Carry, Inc.

May peace favor your sword, also, friend.

 

[lklawson]

If you were to use lethal force, wouldn't you have to prove in court that said lethal force was justified? Even legally-speaking, there's always a possibility of your case being deemed "imperfect self-defense".

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Differing jurisdictions use differing people to decide who gets prosecuted and who doesn't. Sometimes that person(s) will look at a case and decide not to press charges. Sometimes they will. But the decision is not usually made for what most people believe.

In many (most?) states, a non-LEO/non-government-authorized-person deliberately killing someone is considered a crime regardless of whether or not it was justified. Seriously. It's still a crime. In those cases Self Defense is considered an Affirmative Defense. The short version is that you admit that you broke the law (by killing someone) but affirm that it was justified and required because it was a reasonable act of self defense. Showing that requires going to Court and presenting the legal defense of "Self Defense" which would be (depending on applicable legalese, which varies from state to state) be called "Justifiable Homicide." In those cases in which a state has a Homicide law similar to what I've mentioned and where a Prosecutor/DA/whatever decides not to charge, that decision was made because the entity believes that the Affirmative Defense would be accepted in court. Remember, you've already admitted that you killed someone but are now just claiming that you will be reasonably acquitted.

Some of the Stand Your Ground laws work like that. Some don't.

Most Castle Doctrine laws sort of work like that. Some don't.

The internet is a terrible place to find which is which.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and I drown in the well pretty quick. This is why anyone who thinks they might possibly, at some point, employ violence in the name of personal self defense needs a lawyer. The laws are a veritable mine-field that, frankly, only a trained and experienced lawyer is qualified to navigate. Joe Sixpack, even one who is well read and well informed, is simply not qualified and will just as likely screw himself.

The cheapest way to get where you need to go is to join one of the "self defense 'insurance'" programs like Texas Law Shield, Armed Citizens Legal Defense Fund, USCCA, Carry Guard, Second Call Defense, CCW Safe, or one of the others. They're all around (roughly) $150/year starting. They'll pretty much all send you some sort of material that will help educate you about the pitfalls so that you are less likely to screw yourself until your lawyer gets on scene. Most will provide the lawyer or will pay for one you already picked out.

Seriously, the more I learn the more I find out how much I didn't know and the more I realize that 99.999% of people giving self defense legal advice on the 'net are uninformed bozos who will probably get you arrested. Start with the often repeated advice for after a self defense incident, when the police ask questions, that you should do 3 things: "Shut up. Shut up. Shut up." Currently the legal eagles say that for a justified self defense even, this is not only wrong, but will get you arrested and will almost certainly do great, possibly irreparable harm, to your self defense case. But neither should you be chatty. There are certain things that you should communicate and tell the officers. I'm not really at liberty to give out their advice since they're wanting people to pay for it, but a good primer/overview was discussed a few months ago, on the weekend broadcast, for The Armed American Radio broadcast.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tgace]

defend yourself!

From the NYS Penal Law:

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or

If you reasonably believe someone is using or about to use “Deadly Physical Force” against you you are justified in using DPF yourself, UNLESS you know you can retreat WITH COMPLETE SAFETY to yourself or others. You do not have to retreat if you are in your home (and you are not the person who started the fight).

Cops don’t have to flee from the threat of DPF even if safe to do so. It is often wise to do so, but all sorts of thorny work related exceptions would come into play if it were mandated by law.

This is the section that gets some people wrapped around the axle over “stand your ground” laws. While…from one perspective I can see the “if I’m in the right why should the law require I flee?” point, I also think that avoiding unnecessary confrontation is always going to work out better in the long run. This law is not saying “to run” if the guy can shoot you in the back…that would not be “complete safety”. But if some guy outside your car is stabbing at your window with a knife (without success of course) and you can drive away…do so.

 

[PhotonGuy]

As far as self-defense goes in terms of martial arts, any seasoned veteran will tell you that in most cases, the best course of action is to exercise self-control and walk away, which is perfectly fine in most cases. Discipline is as much mental as it is physical. But I think we can all agree that having the ability to defend yourself is a good thing. Martial Arts is perfect for developing the tools to protect yourself, but legally speaking the subject can be a bit.....tricky. I'm sure it also doesn't help that the laws regarding self-defense could be different, depending on which state you hail from. So, out of curiosity, what are the laws regarding self-defense in the state (or part of the world for anyone outside of the US) you live in?

In the state of Florida, we have in place something called a "Stand-your-ground" law. What that basically is, according to Wikipedia, "is a justification in a criminal case, whereby defendants can 'stand their ground' and use force without retreating, in order to protect and defend themselves or others against threats or perceived threats. An example is where there is no duty to retreat from any place where they have a lawful right to be, and that they may use any level of force if they reasonably believe the threat rises to the level of being an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death."

So, what about you guys? Do you have a law like this, or something completely different?

In the USA the law says you're allowed to defend yourself. It doesn't matter where you are in the country in the USA you have the right by law to defend yourself if you're attacked. Now that doesn't mean you can continue to beat on an attacker once you've stopped them. When it comes to self defense you're intent should be to stop the attacker. You're intent should not be to kill, it should not be to injure, it should be to stop. Once you've stopped your attacker you've fulfilled your intent so there is no reason to keep using force at that point and thus it would not validate self defense. But up until you've stopped your attacker you can fight back as that would be self defense.

There are many members on this forum who don't live in the USA and I don't know how it is regarding the legality of self defense in other countries but that's how it is in the USA.

 

[Psilent Knight]

No idea and I don't care. If I'm ever attacked and think my life's in danger I couldn't give a stuff about the law I'll do what I have to do to survive and I'll take the consequences whatever they are. If you hesitate because of worrying about law or getting in trouble that's when you get seriously hurt or killed

I side with Headhunter on this one. I've reached a point where I now say to hell with those laws and the scoundrels who make them.

You guys really need to remind yourselves that the value of your lives and the lives of your loved ones should not be determined by laws made by people who do not live among the common citizens, who travel with bodyguards and live in million dollar gated communities.

 

[Paul_D]

I side with Headhunter on this one. I've reached a point where I now say to hell with those laws and the scoundrels who make them.

You can defend yourself and stay within the law.

 

[Psilent Knight]

You can defend yourself and stay within the law.

I'm not arguing against that possibility. What I'm saying is if your life or the life of your loved ones is at stake you have a choice to make; worry about self defense laws (most of which is ridiculous) and possibly lose yours or your loved one's life OR take on the attitude/mindset that yours and your loved ones lives HAVE MORE VALUE than laws that protect criminals and punish the good guys. Laws fabricated by people who DO NOT live in the real world among society's sociopaths like you and I do.

 

[lklawson]

worry about self defense laws (most of which is ridiculous)

Actually, most Self Defense law in the U.S. is pretty reasonable.

and possibly lose yours or your loved one's life OR take on the attitude/mindset that yours and your loved ones lives HAVE MORE VALUE than laws that protect criminals and punish the good guys.

Most law in the U.S. supports this the person defending themselves and their family against lethal force.

Laws fabricated by people who DO NOT live in the real world among society's sociopaths like you and I do.

Maybe you're confusing the recent trend in some locals in the U.S. for politically motivated prosecutors to bring charges which are poorly supported by law and most often would fail when opposed by competent legal Defense. Two different things.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[CB Jones]

Really the three things to keep in mind:

1). Is it a stand your ground state or are you required to retreat if possible.

2). Force you use is a reasonable force for the threat encountered

3). Did you deescalate and stop once the threat was over.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Actually, most Self Defense law in the U.S. is pretty reasonable.

I highly beg to differ. Personal experience and observation has taught me that most self defense law in the U.S. is very unreasonable.

Most law in the U.S. supports this the person defending themselves and their family against lethal force.

Again, I beg to differ thanks to personal experience and observation.

Maybe you're confusing the recent trend in some locals in the U.S. for politically motivated prosecutors to bring charges which are poorly supported by law and most often would fail when opposed by competent legal Defense. Two different things.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not confusing anything. Politically motivated prosecutors, distasteful "Legal Defense" and the policy makers all occupy the same dirty basket; they all occupy a place in the world in which they place themselves above the people who do not occupy the same place as them; the place of law, law enforcement, legislation, policy making and politics.

Laws are meant to keep average people in line and let criminals do whatever they want so it's really a suckers game. And these same laws are passed down and enforced by people many of whom are criminals themselves. They simply get a pass since they make and enforce the laws. Again, IT'S A SUCKERS GAME!!

 

[lklawson]

I highly beg to differ. Personal experience and observation has taught me that most self defense law in the U.S. is very unreasonable.



Again, I beg to differ thanks to personal experience and observation.



Not confusing anything. Politically motivated prosecutors, distasteful "Legal Defense" and the policy makers all occupy the same dirty basket; they all occupy a place in the world in which they place themselves above the people who do not occupy the same place as them; the place of law, law enforcement, legislation, policy making and politics.

Laws are meant to keep average people in line and let criminals do whatever they want so it's really a suckers game. And these same laws are passed down and enforced by people many of whom are criminals themselves. They simply get a pass since they make and enforce the laws. Again, IT'S A SUCKERS GAME!!

Then I guess we're just going to disagree. I've based my opinion on reading a bunch of the laws, looking at case law, and listening to the opinions of self defense attorneys and Expert Witnesses.

 

[Psilent Knight]

I've based my opinion on reading a bunch of the laws, looking at case law, and listening to the opinions of self defense attorneys and Expert Witnesses.

And I've based mine on observing the application of these laws in reality and actual practice.

 

[lklawson]

And I've based mine on observing the application of these laws in reality and actual practice.

Oh. You mean the difference between politically motivated prosecutors bringing charges which are poorly supported by law and most often would fail when opposed by competent legal Defense and the actual law?

 

[CB Jones]

And I've based mine on observing the application of these laws in reality and actual practice.

How so?

LEO
Defense Attorney
Prosecuting Attorney
Firearms instructor

 

[Paul_D]

I'm not arguing against that possibility. What I'm saying is if your life or the life of your loved ones is at stake you have a choice to make; worry about self defense laws (most of which is ridiculous) and possibly lose yours or your loved one's life OR take on the attitude/mindset that yours and your loved ones lives HAVE MORE VALUE than laws that protect criminals and punish the good guys. Laws fabricated by people who DO NOT live in the real world among society's sociopaths like you and I do.

What I am saying is that you don't have to make that choice. Familiarise yourself with he law, structure your training and your scenario drills to work within the law, and then when the time comes and you instinctively do what your training has taught you to do, you don't have to worry about the law because you stayed on the right side of it.

You do not have to think " Screw the law, I'll take the risk" in order to defend yourself and others.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Oh. You mean the difference between politically motivated prosecutors bringing charges which are poorly supported by law and most often would fail when opposed by competent legal Defense and the actual law?

No, I mean politically motivated prosecutors cherry picking the charges they bring and distasteful Legal Defense that use their talents to defend and help acquit offenders who are definitely guilty. One Defense Attorney told me about two months ago out of his own mouth that he is in "the BUSINESS of making money by defending offenders."

How so?

LEO
Defense Attorney
Prosecuting Attorney
Firearms instructor

Even better. My neighbor spending the last 8 years (of a 15 year sentence) in prison for shooting a home invader. That same defense attorney I referenced above (who is damn good at what he does btw) defending and clearing a thug who shot a guy during a robbery. The scores of LEOs who should be doing time for unjustifiable homicide of unarmed citizens.

I will say this again. MY FAMILY AND I ARE NOT WORTHLESS. OUR LIVES HAVE JUST AS MUCH VALUE AS SOCIOPATHS, CRIMINALS, POLICY MAKERS, PROSECUTORS AND LEOS!!! I have a natural human right to defend myself and my loved ones and I will not allow anyone to tell me otherwise.

 

[CB Jones]

So the experience you are talking about is one case that happened to your neighbor and a conversation with one Attorney.......that is an awfully small sample size to make broad assumptions on lethal force laws in the US

 

[Psilent Knight]

What I am saying is that you don't have to make that choice.

But there may come a time when you WILL have to make that choice is what I am saying.

Familiarise yourself with he law, structure your training and your scenario drills to work within the law, and then when the time comes and you instinctively do what your training has taught you to do, you don't have to worry about the law because you stayed on the right side of it.

As much as I want to do exactly what you said I don't want you to overlook that trying your best to stay on the right side of the law may cost you or a loved one's life. I'm not saying every altercation has to end in the loss of life or limb. I am saying that if I know for sure that my safety is on the line then I am in full self preservation mode and worrying about these laws maybe that one dent in my armor that can cause my family to have to bury me instead of seeing me in court. You know, the whole judged by 12 instead of buried by 6 thing.

You do not have to think " Screw the law, I'll take the risk" in order to defend yourself and others.

Well, while defending myself I certainly will not be thinking about how much trouble I can get into if I do serious or lethal harm to someone. I'll be too busy fighting to survive.

You are just as familiar with Geoff Thompson as I am. Recall that he would always refer to the Law as "The Second Enemy". There's a reason who said this.

I guess I've dealt with enough pond scum to be unable to see things the way many other posters see it in this thread. But my message to criminals, thugs, psychopaths, sociopaths, LEOs, prosecutors and judges is the same. MY LIFE HAS JUST AS MUCH VALUE AS THEIRS DO!!

 

[Psilent Knight]

So the experience you are talking about is one case that happened to your neighbor and a conversation with one Attorney.......that is an awfully small sample size to make broad assumptions on lethal force laws in the US

NO! That is just ONE CASE that I shared. I never said it's the ONLY CASE!! There are plenty of others. But one case is enough because what I am talking about as far as justice and these "self defense laws" are concerned SHOULDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL! That's the point that I believe is eluding you.

 

[CB Jones]

NO! That is just ONE CASE that I shared. I never said it's the ONLY CASE!! There are plenty of others. But one case is enough because what I am talking about as far as justice and these "self defense laws" are concerned SHOULDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL! That's the point that I believe is eluding you.

Where I live the law states you have the right to defend yourself if it is reasonable to believe your life is in danger of death or great bodily harm. The law also states you have the right to defend yourself anywhere you have the lawful right to be.

Now....explain how these self defense laws are unreasonable?