Self Defense (Concepts v Reality)

[Hanzou]

So you are saying basically the only art that should be considered for self defense in BJJ ?

Nope.

 

[LastGasp]

Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are only good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.

But, although I know that some are not actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a good general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the first things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.

 

[jobo]

So let me make sure I understand your argument here:

Are you saying that an (untrained) big muscular guy would gain no additional fighting ability from studying MMA, Bjj, boxing, wrestling, etc?

No, I'm saying they have no need for addition fighting ability, if they can beat anyone who is likely to attack them, getting in to the state of paranoia, that you may have to have the ability to beat a local area champion boxer, isn't a sensible way to spend your time, and you most likely couldn't anyway, even if you did learn mma

 

[Hanzou]

No, I'm saying they have no need for addition fighting ability, if they can beat anyone who is likely to attack them, getting in to the state of paranoia, that you may have to have the ability to beat a local area champion boxer, isn't a sensible way to spend your time, and you most likely couldn't anyway, even if you did learn mma

Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.

However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.

 

[now disabled]

Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are only good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.

But, although I know that some are not actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a good general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the first things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.

The first tech you need in self defense is run and don't fight ...as that the best defense of all

My friend there is no one tech that you can be taught that will work everytime !00%

Actually that is one of the reasons I started this thread was to see if the vast knowledge on here from all different Arts and systems can be used and to get people thinking laterally not ...this is the way or the art

 

[jobo]

Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are only good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.

But, although I know that some are not actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a good general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the first things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.

But that's the big lie, of self defence courses, there's are not simple techniques you can learn quickly that will neutralise a vastly physically superior opponents, first you need to close the gap physicaly, then you need to invest a fair amount of time, in learning and repeating your skills till they become ingrained,

 

[now disabled]

just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.

You tube ok ...that is and can be a great tool no doubt as can vids , if you actually know what your looking at as opposed to only thinking you know

Not everywhere is like the states that has high schools offering boxing etc so just bear that in mind

and really how many street attacks are made by trained fighters ?

 

[now disabled]

Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.

However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.

Have you ever been in a brawl or a street fight?

 

[Hanzou]

You tube ok ...that is and can be a great tool no doubt as can vids , if you actually know what your looking at as opposed to only thinking you know

Not everywhere is like the states that has high schools offering boxing etc so just bear that in mind

and really how many street attacks are made by trained fighters ?

Here's the thing though, if you happened to have wrestled in high school, some of the concepts in Bjj and other grappling arts are fairly easy to grasp. There's plenty of jackasses doing backyard wrestling and other stupid crap, and they're picking up moves like chokes and arm bars. If you're already fairly solid with a double leg takedown (which frankly isn't that hard to learn), grounding and pounding isn't exactly rocket science.

There aren't many MAs that teach you how to get out of that unfortunately.

Have you ever been in a brawl or a street fight?

If you consider a mentally handicapped kid with a hammer trying to turn my brains into jello a "street fight" then yes.

 

[jobo]

Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.

However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.

I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.

We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter

How likelyIan I to be attacked by a mt, Or bjj,, fighter, I've never met one out side of a dojo,, the chances of being attacked by one on my way home from the pub are practically nil.

You can't live a reasonable life with a the paranoia, that the absolute worse out come will happen, or you would be spending your money on a nuclear bunker, and stocking up on oozies

 

[Hanzou]

I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.

We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter

How likelyIan I to be attacked by a mt, Or bjj,, fighter, I've never met one out side of a dojo,, the chances of being attacked by one on my way home from the pub are practically nil.

You can't live a reasonable life with a the paranoia, that the absolute worse out come will happen, or you would be spending your money on a nuclear bunker, and stocking up on oozies

Hilarious that you think the possibility of running into a trained attacker is the equivalent of "living in a Kung Fu film".

 

[LastGasp]

My friend there is no one tech that you can be taught that will work everytime !00%

Well, no, I don't mean literally one technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are most likely to be able to use with no prior experience (I have Hanzou's daughter in mind here, and others in that situation, learning something for the first time).

But that's the big lie, of self defence courses, there's are not simple techniques you can learn quickly that will neutralise a vastly physically superior opponents, first you need to close the gap physicaly, then you need to invest a fair amount of time, in learning and repeating your skills till they become ingrained,

Yeah, I can see that side too, lol. But again, what I mean is those techniques that the inexperienced have best chance with in the early stages of learning. Best place to hit to knock that knife from his hand, tips on applying a kick in the nether regions, that kind of thing, taught first. Of course you get better with practice and as you then begin to learn further techniques. But often, martial arts classes don't address those things first. Often, they don't come into a syllabus until much later.

 

[now disabled]

Here's the thing though, if you happened to have wrestled in high school, some of the concepts in Bjj and other grappling arts are fairly easy to grasp. There's plenty of jackasses doing backyard wrestling and other stupid crap, and they're picking up moves like chokes and arm bars. If you're already fairly solid with a double leg takedown (which frankly isn't that hard to learn), grounding and pounding isn't exactly rocket science.

There aren't many MAs that teach you how to get out of that unfortunately.



If you consider a mentally handicapped kid with a hammer trying to turn my brains into jello a "street fight" then yes.

Again I know of no High schools here that teach wrestling

And your saying if you do or have done wrestling then you will understand or get the concepts of the grappling arts?

Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?

 

[now disabled]

I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.

We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter

How likelyIan I to be attacked by a mt, Or bjj,, fighter, I've never met one out side of a dojo,, the chances of being attacked by one on my way home from the pub are practically nil.

You can't live a reasonable life with a the paranoia, that the absolute worse out come will happen, or you would be spending your money on a nuclear bunker, and stocking up on oozies

Jobo that's uzi not oozie lol


but you are right I would suspect that running into a trained attacker like Hanzou is saying or alluding to is not that common

unless he saying the hammer kid was a trained hammer fighter

 

[Hanzou]

Again I know of no High schools here that teach wrestling

Just about every high school here in the states does, and they produce some damn good grapplers. So while that is no concern for you, it's a very real concern for us here in the US.

And your saying if you do or have done wrestling then you will understand or get the concepts of the grappling arts?

Absolutely. Wrestling itself is a grappling art, and wrestling is the root of the majority of grappling arts to begin with.

Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?

Yes, he met a triangle choke.

 

[jobo]

Hilarious that you think the possibility of running into a trained attacker is the equivalent of "living in a Kung Fu film".

Yes, first you have to find someone who is trained, which is a very small % of the population, and then you hava to annoy them sufficiently that they attack you, how many millions to one against is that ? and if they are fat or old or drunk, there training matters less and less

I've never ever been attacked by a trained fighter, never, a few rugby players, but I was playing rugby, so that's reasonable

 

[now disabled]

Well, no, I don't mean literally one technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are most likely to be able to use with no prior experience (I

What do you mean by right out the locker ?

 

[now disabled]

Just about every high school here in the states does, and they produce some damn good grapplers. So while that is no concern for you, it's a very real concern for us here in the US.



Absolutely. Wrestling itself is a grappling art, and wrestling is the root of the majority of grappling arts to begin with.



Yes, he met a triangle choke.

Ok so what is your definition of the grappling arts ?

 

[Hanzou]

Ok so what is your definition of the grappling arts ?

Jujitsu, Catch Wrestling, Shao Jiao (sp?), Judo, Bjj, Sambo, etc.

 

[LastGasp]

What do you mean by right out the locker ?

Those techniques that have a chance of being effective with the least practice. A kick in the nuts, for instance (as an example).
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all techniques take hours and hours of practice to be of any use? In which case, I'd move to a quieter neighbourhood, lol.