Self-Confidence and Chi Sao

[Gerry Seymour]

Fear of losing, fear of failure. That's the piece. Sorry I used a politically incorrect word.

The key issue here is one of resilience. Confidence isn't a trait; it is a by-product. It's a result. Fear is the real issue here. The only way to overcome fear of failure is to fail and realize that failure is a necessary function of growth. Success is validation; failure is growth.

I didn't say competition is the only, or even the best approach for all folks. However you fail, you need to do it.

Now, competition is the only way people can gain access to some other things. But failure is available in many ways.

And sure, it's hard. And sure, it's harder for some than others. And of course, the longer you live with fear of failure, the harder it will be to overcome it. None of that changes the situation in the least.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
~ Samuel Beckett

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot ... and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed."
~ Michael Jordan

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when my fear is gone I will turn and face fear's path, and only I will remain." - Maud Dib

The quotes are good. And your points are valid. My point is simply that someone with very low confidence cannot grow it by failing, if failure (and their belief of how others perceive that) is what they fear, especially if they are to fail pretty miserably. For someone with even moderate confidence, there are many competitions where failure is pretty safe (psychologically speaking) - like from what I've seen at most BJJ, Judo, and Karate competitions. But that only works if the subject correctly perceives the outcome. If they see a failure as devastating (people think less of them, etc.), then it doesn't actually matter much how positively others respond. Their fear feeds itself.

That said, I do think competition is a great part of the process. Perhaps not the starting point for some folks. And team competition seems to be more help for folks who are struggling the most (where they can feel more protected from the exposure of loss).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure. You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.

"Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.

 

[Steve]

The quotes are good. And your points are valid. My point is simply that someone with very low confidence cannot grow it by failing, if failure (and their belief of how others perceive that) is what they fear, especially if they are to fail pretty miserably. For someone with even moderate confidence, there are many competitions where failure is pretty safe (psychologically speaking) - like from what I've seen at most BJJ, Judo, and Karate competitions. But that only works if the subject correctly perceives the outcome. If they see a failure as devastating (people think less of them, etc.), then it doesn't actually matter much how positively others respond. Their fear feeds itself.

That said, I do think competition is a great part of the process. Perhaps not the starting point for some folks. And team competition seems to be more help for folks who are struggling the most (where they can feel more protected from the exposure of loss).

The answer isn't to avoid failure. First of all that's not possible. Second, it's not healthy. Third, I completely agree that working with a professional therapist is step 1. Medication may help. I've worked with a lot of people who are mentally ill and working with them when they are on or off their medication is like night and day. However, I have never heard anyone ever suggest that false confidence is a solid way to overcome lack of confidence. That is a disaster waiting to happen, and will more likely than not backfire and cause even more confidence issues once the illusion of confidence is shattered.

Regarding competition, I'm not sure how many times I need to say that it was an example in my post, not the point of the post. In this case, it's not competition that is salient. It's failure, which happens all the time, which is the point. kids in competition are a perfect example of resilience, which is central to this discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The answer isn't to avoid failure. First of all that's not possible. Second, it's not healthy. Third, I completely agree that working with a professional therapist is step 1. Medication may help. I've worked with a lot of people who are mentally ill and working with them when they are on or off their medication is like night and day. However, I have never heard anyone ever suggest that false confidence is a solid way to overcome lack of confidence. That is a disaster waiting to happen, and will more likely than not backfire and cause even more confidence issues once the illusion of confidence is shattered.

Regarding competition, I'm not sure how many times I need to say that it was an example in my post, not the point of the post. In this case, it's not competition that is salient. It's failure, which happens all the time, which is the point. kids in competition are a perfect example of resilience, which is central to this discussion.

It's not about false confidence. It's about finding areas where confidence can be built. And you're entirely right that failure will always be part of the experience. Effective progress typically requires finding failures that feel safe to the subject (where they have less fear of the failure and its consequences).

I wasn't trying to poke at you with the competition comment. I was just following through on the thoughts, since we'd started talking about competition. It's a useful tool, used appropriately, and bears discussion.

 

[Steve]

"Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.

I'm sure it was the best thing for all involved. AND, some people fear success as much as they or others fear failure. Both, in my experience, stem from self esteem issues and lack of confidence.

 

[Steve]

It's not about false confidence. It's about finding areas where confidence can be built. And you're entirely right that failure will always be part of the experience. Effective progress typically requires finding failures that feel safe to the subject (where they have less fear of the failure and its consequences).

I wasn't trying to poke at you with the competition comment. I was just following through on the thoughts, since we'd started talking about competition. It's a useful tool, used appropriately, and bears discussion.

Yeah, but I have also been accused by a particular moderator around here of views I don't have, so I'm now a little careful about that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, but I have also been accused by a particular moderator around here of views I don't have, so I'm now a little careful about that.

Understood.

 

[wingchun100]

"Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.

Yes, because if I had continued and at the end they decided I was not a good fit for them, the would have marked me as "probation terminated," And that would have been a mark on my record that would be damn near impossible to escape. Much better to bail on MY terms. And not for nothing, but I took the PCO exam on April 8 (11 days before I left) that will make me eligible for positions that pay just as much.

 

[Steve]

Alright. Hold on here. I can't indulge this level of denial.

Yes, because if I had continued and at the end they decided I was not a good fit for them, the would have marked me as "probation terminated," And that would have been a mark on my record that would be damn near impossible to escape. Much better to bail on MY terms. And not for nothing, but I took the PCO exam on April 8 (11 days before I left) that will make me eligible for positions that pay just as much.

Yeah, as I recall, that's where you started. And truly, as I said then, if you're unsuccessful in a job, you absolutely did the right thing. Where you went totally off the rails is when you started getting into some really bad juju. You said:

Oh believe me, there was no happiness to be found there...unless of course you were a pretty female. THEN the boss loved you and let you get away with murder, but if you were a 40 year old male, he would come down on you for every little mistake you made...and oddly enough, he would do it in front of the pretty female staff, no less!

I don't need to work under a douche like that.

Then I said at the time:

Err... you know you're accusing your former boss of something that is illegal. Right?

To which you replied:

Yes, and I know this becaue the agency I was in actually investigated such complaints.

And in fact, I was not the original accuser. Someone else in that office said, "He wanted a female in that position, so that's probably the sticking point."

And also:

If they investigate discrimination complaints, I wonder who investigates them if THEY are accused of that. Must be some internal affairs kind of unit.

Whether any of that is true or not, that's entirely inappropriate. Maybe you guys don't see that as throwing under the bus. But, dang... I'd feel that way.

Now, I do want to say that, if it's true, you are saying you were being harassed by your boss, and that your coworker is complicit, and this is a very big deal! You also suggest that your boss, being the guy who investigates allegations of harassment, is immune from investigation. If true, holy cow!!! I'm sure that, even in New York, you guys have some appropriate means for filing your complaint. It really sounds like that needs further investigation, particularly if you are suggesting that your boss created a situation where you were being unfairly treated If not true, or even if loosely based on reality, but exaggerated, once again, holy cow. And this is still not the right way to do this.

So, let's not pretend you didn't say the things above. If you want to reframe them now, fine. But you went way beyond "not a good fit."