Sanchin

[punisher73]

Sanchin is like a pretty jewelry box that is locked. You can marvel at it's beauty and appreciate it, but until you really dig in and "unlock" it do you find the treasure inside the box.

So to some, it is an "exercise" only kata that has no combat value. To others it contains all of the essence of their art. Both are right depending on how much time they spend with Sanchin and what it teaches them when digging. My opinion, if all you want is exercise, then the masters wouldn't have had students performing hojo undo as well. There was something else that was to be learned from the kata.

 

[puunui]

Where does sanchin come from? Who invented it?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Where does sanchin come from? Who invented it?

I guess no one knows...


http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=648

EDIT: The article above talks about San Chien form from Ngo Cho Kun. I do see what appear to be similarities.

[video=youtube_share;lvw9-SIurKE]http://youtu.be/lvw9-SIurKE[/video]

 

[seasoned]

If you watch closely you can see the little bounce he does as he rebounds. Like a bouncing ball goes down and fires backup from the ground, so does the body in sanchin. Power comes from the ground but originates from the hips sending the weight down as the power bounces backup through the body and out the limbs.
Thoughts or does anyone care to elaborate more.

 

[ballen0351]

I think its neat there are so many different verison of it this is the version I try to do:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is my Sanchin. I do not claim expertise in it. And FYI, I'm nearly 20 pounds lighter than when I filmed this. :uhyeah:

[video=youtube_share;ZpcrmwU4Euw]http://youtu.be/ZpcrmwU4Euw[/video]

 

[seasoned]

If you watch closely you can see the little bounce he does as he rebounds. Like a bouncing ball goes down and fires backup from the ground, so does the body in sanchin. Power comes from the ground but originates from the hips sending the weight down as the power bounces backup through the body and out the limbs.
Thoughts or does anyone care to elaborate more.

Question asked of me by a student.

I haven’t fully learned Sanchin yet; I have gone through it a couple times at the dojo, but it hasn’t been fully taught to me. I think I remember learning the movements without the breathing, etc. from Pete when I was in my mid-teens. I was actually talking to my dad about Sanchin testing a few weeks ago, because he used to go to all of the tournaments in the ‘60s and ‘70s (Pete was his best man at my parents’ wedding in 1970; they were very close). We were talking about Shihan Van Lenten and how he is rumored to be the first one to be tested during Sanchin by having boards broken over his back, arms, etc. I asked him if Pete used to do that too, and he responded with an annoyed “Why sh** yes!,” as if it was a ridiculous question for me to ask. How I feel about Sanchin – I think anything that allows you to build the kind of strength to have blunt objects broken over various parts of your body without it affecting you in return is a pretty incredible technique, and I’m eager to start learning it.
You mentioned that you practice and teach the 12 Goju katas, but you said before that Pete had originally started teaching the mixed system (Shorin, Goju, etc.) in the ‘60s. If you don’t mind me asking, why did you go to the traditional Goju system? Is it for the same reasons that Van Lenten and Pete did in the ‘80s? Do you see it as being “better” in some way?

My answer.

Shorin Ryu and GoJu Ryu are two separate systems. One being credited with power, and the other with speed and fluid moves. They are good combinations, but I don’t think we need to study two systems to achieve what one will give, over time. I was given both when my training started, but evolved into GoJu.
GoJu is a midrange to close in fighting system, while Shorin Ryu is a long to midrange system. Taking this into consideration, it is apparent that Shorin Ryu is conducive to sparring, while GoJu, not so much. Now the question is, what is one looking for within their training. It would seem that the above would make for a well rounded fighter, “close, medium, and long range”, but at a second glance the principles are different. While Shorin Ryu is content with staying outside, GoJu teaches you to close quickly and finish abruptly. Because of GoJu’s close in fighting principles, we need to generate power at a much closer distance, while at the same time maintaining balance as we grapple, lock up, and take down our opponent.
By learning Sanchin as our first kata, it sets the ground work needed to achieve GoJu’s objective, “close in fighting”. All the principles of GoJu are within Sanchin, “Structure, breath, and movement“. Once we own these principles, we begin to translate them into all our other kata. Where GoJu is concerned, learning other kata before Sanchin is counter productive to success with GoJu. Sanchin isn’t about learning moves or techniques, but it is to be able to feel them. This feeling part can’t be taught, only guided by someone that has put the time in.

IMHO, sanchin teaches one to generate power while in very close to your opponent. It is a hard concept to grasp, but, it is difficult to generate power when nose to nose with someone. Sanchin, if done correctly, will teach you to send power down to the ground and back up and out. If you try to generate power close in with just upper body power, it will not work, because you are to close. Send it down and let it rebound back up and your power will be magnified greatly.

Someone asked in a past post, "where did sanchin come from", it was brought back from China.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

IMHO, sanchin teaches one to generate power while in very close to your opponent. It is a hard concept to grasp, but, it is difficult to generate power when nose to nose with someone. Sanchin, if done correctly, will teach you to send power down to the ground and back up and out. If you try to generate power close in with just upper body power, it will not work, because you are to close. Send it down and let it rebound back up and your power will be magnified greatly.

Must be why I love Sanchin so much. I always try to get in close and crowd my opponent sparring. I don't do it consciously, I just do it. Get in close and hammer away. I'm not afraid to take one to give two. And I love to jam a kick when I can. I don't doubt I could use a lot of help generating more power in close, but I'm pretty strong; I hit like a train. I can only imagine what I could do if I could generate more power from the ground.

 

[K-man]

Bill, we saw your kata before and I made a couple of comments. If you look at the kata that Ballen posted, you will see the differences I was referring to. :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, we saw your kata before and I made a couple of comments. If you look at the kata that Ballen posted, you will see the differences I was referring to. :asian:

I did look at it and I do see the differences. We honestly don't do the 'hip flip' in our dojo. We just tuck the tailbone, the back is supposed to be straight. I also went back to the dojo and took a good look at my foot placement; I'm heel-toe, it just looks like I'm taking a longer stance because of the angle of the camera and the fact that my stance is shoulder-width for me; I've got wide shoulders. We are also not tense through the entire kata. The slow punches are relaxed; the tenseness comes at the end of each punch and then as each punch turns into a block, so two clenches as we step forward. You can't see it, but I am clenching not just my arm muscles but also from my hara; it's like dropping my wind when I get ready to take a punch. Chinkuchi?

But I'm not making excuses; I'm no expert and need a lot of work on all my kata. I just know we don't do the hip flip; it's been discussed and the answer was no, don't do that. I was told that it was present at one time, but was taken out.

 

[K-man]

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[TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: white"]My understanding is that Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version.

Here is one version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y

For those versed in Goju kata you will see elements of Sanchin and Tensho kata in the movements.

Kanro Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi both studied White Crane in China and both brought back a version of Sanchin that the taught to their respective students.

Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

You will notice a similarity between this and the kata posted earlier by Bill (the Chinese one).

I have trawled YouTube to find someone performing the Higaonna version but can seem to find one when I need it. I'll just have to describe it. It is similar to the Miyagi version but incorporates two turns. Now both the Higaonna version and the Miyagi version differ from the Uechi version in that Miyagi went from the open hand nukite strike to the closed fist. Also, all these versions locked up the body far more than you see in the kata posted by Bill.

The Chinese kata was striking with the finger tips. This ties in with DimMak, striking to vital points. The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing. Hence my comment in an earlier post when I alluded to Ki in Sanchin. The main difference though, is that the Goju Ryu variants utilise a much more compact body structure and the head is directly above the straight spine.

Here is the Jundokan version.

:asian:

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[K-man]

U

We honestly don't do the 'hip flip' in our dojo. We just tuck the tailbone, the back is supposed to be straight.

Not sure what you mean by 'hip flip'. Looking at Morio Higaonna I think you mean the move where he is drawing in to lock his pelvis. It's not something that we do as a particular move. Once in the Sanchin stance the body locks. Your tucking the tail bone equates to straightening the lower spine.

The slow punches are relaxed; the tenseness comes at the end of each punch and then as each punch turns into a block, so two clenches as we step forward. You can't see it, but I am clenching not just my arm muscles but also from my hara; it's like dropping my wind when I get ready to take a punch. Chinkuchi?

The extension of the arm for us is not relaxed at all. In fact it is the extension of the arm that is 'tested'. It must not be a push but an extension of the arm from the stable base (what a lot of you guys seem to refer to as a rooted stance). All our moves are performed with dynamic tension. The final expulsion of air is from the hara but it is a different tension to 'chinkuchi'. Chinkuchi as I understand it is similar to preparing to take a punch but to me is the tensioning of the body as you are delivering a strike. Prior to impact the body is relaxed and generating power from the hara, through the hips to the shoulder, the shoulder accelerating the relaxed arm until, at the moment of impact, the body locks for a fraction of a second before relaxing again. (This is huge in Okinawan Goju but totally lacking in the Goju Kai version.)

But I'm not making excuses; I'm no expert and need a lot of work on all my kata. I just know we don't do the hip flip; it's been discussed and the answer was no, don't do that. I was told that it was present at one time, but was taken out.

As to how you perform your kata, it is up to you and what you want to get from it. There is no right or wrong as you will find that all styles have made their version a little different. I just teach the Jundokan version. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Sorry to say I lost my post, computer is messing up. I will try again........

 

[seasoned]

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: white"]My understanding is that Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version.

I agree. "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" (Martial Power and Qigong] is a good book to explain much.

Here is one version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y

For those versed in Goju kata you will see elements of Sanchin and Tensho kata in the movements.

Kanro Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi both studied White Crane in China and both brought back a version of Sanchin that the taught to their respective students.

Also my understanding.

Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

You will notice a similarity between this and the kata posted earlier by Bill (the Chinese one).

I have trawled YouTube to find someone performing the Higaonna version but can seem to find one when I need it. I'll just have to describe it. It is similar to the Miyagi version but incorporates two turns. Now both the Higaonna version and the Miyagi version differ from the Uechi version in that Miyagi went from the open hand nukite strike to the closed fist. Also, all these versions locked up the body far more than you see in the kata posted by Bill.

I understand that the 2 turns were there in the beginning but were left out during a demo because the back of the person doing sanchin was turned toward Miyagi. This caught on and Miyagi sanchin was born. Some feel the turns hold a key to sanchin, and this is why I teach both, but I do focus on the turns for a specific reason within the kata

The Chinese kata was striking with the finger tips. This ties in with DimMak, striking to vital points. The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing. Hence my comment in an earlier post when I alluded to Ki in Sanchin. The main difference though, is that the Goju Ryu variants utilise a much more compact body structure and the head is directly above the straight spine.

I do feel that the tension within sanchin has to do more with the body ground connection and as a means of developing power and structure, and once it is transfered to our kata there is a fine line between the Go and the Ju. I'm not saying they are two different entities, but that the secrets lie within the blending of the two.

Here is the Jundokan version.

:asian:


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[seasoned]

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: white"]My understanding is that Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version.

Here is one version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y

For those versed in Goju kata you will see elements of Sanchin and Tensho kata in the movements.

Kanro Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi both studied White Crane in China and both brought back a version of Sanchin that the taught to their respective students.

Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

You will notice a similarity between this and the kata posted earlier by Bill (the Chinese one).

I have trawled YouTube to find someone performing the Higaonna version but can seem to find one when I need it. I'll just have to describe it. It is similar to the Miyagi version but incorporates two turns. Now both the Higaonna version and the Miyagi version differ from the Uechi version in that Miyagi went from the open hand nukite strike to the closed fist. Also, all these versions locked up the body far more than you see in the kata posted by Bill.

The Chinese kata was striking with the finger tips. This ties in with DimMak, striking to vital points. The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing. Hence my comment in an earlier post when I alluded to Ki in Sanchin. The main difference though, is that the Goju Ryu variants utilise a much more compact body structure and the head is directly above the straight spine.

Here is the Jundokan version.

:asian:


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The book "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" (Martial Power and Qigong) gives much insight into sanchin and the effects the kata has on goju that sometimes is not taught while learning sanchin kata. I believe sanchin as with all kata, have an infancy stage that does not come to full understanding until after BB, where you learn what you have learned.
I did learn both sanchin, with turns and without. I do both but I tend toward the turning version and teach it that way also. I feel that the turns hold a key to hip movement that enhances power transfer. Miyagi did drop the turns because of a demo he did, and he did not want backs turned while he watched the kata preformed, and from there it just caught on.
This statement by k-man is an element sometimes left to the student for fear of confusion. "The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing".
The above statement is intricate to sanchin development, IMO.

 

[seasoned]

I did look at it and I do see the differences. We honestly don't do the 'hip flip' in our dojo. We just tuck the tail bone, the back is supposed to be straight. I also went back to the dojo and took a good look at my foot placement; I'm heel-toe, it just looks like I'm taking a longer stance because of the angle of the camera and the fact that my stance is shoulder-width for me; I've got wide shoulders. We are also not tense through the entire kata. The slow punches are relaxed; the tenseness comes at the end of each punch and then as each punch turns into a block, so two clenches as we step forward. You can't see it, but I am clenching not just my arm muscles but also from my hara; it's like dropping my wind when I get ready to take a punch. Chinkuchi?

But I'm not making excuses; I'm no expert and need a lot of work on all my kata. I just know we don't do the hip flip; it's been discussed and the answer was no, don't do that. I was told that it was present at one time, but was taken out.

I feel the two highlighted parts above are part of the essence of the teachings of sanchin. Not so much the "hip flip" as you state, but, the tuck the tail bone "pelvic tilt" part which transfers the power down to the ground, and allows it to bounce and rebound up through a straight spine, with a tucked chin. With our structure intact it gives a direct route through our body allowing power transfer from ground to opponent. The way our hips move needs to be investigated over a long time to feel the shake and tremble in the hips needed to start the whole action. Power starts in the hips but goes down then up, allowing us to generate close in power. Think on it because it can be very hard to digest all at once.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

UAs to how you perform your kata, it is up to you and what you want to get from it. There is no right or wrong as you will find that all styles have made their version a little different. I just teach the Jundokan version. :asian:

Yes, I was referring to that little 'thing' as a hip-flip. I've heard it also called a 'pelvic thrust'. It looks mildly obscene - no disrespect to anyone intended!

As to our arm extensions, they are done with power; one test of our Sanchin is for someone to oppose the arms as they come out. The power behind the extension must be rooted in the ground or it's pure upper body muscle, which shows up as the karateka performing the kata will push his own upper body backwards when the punches are opposed. But although they are done with power, they are not done under tension, if that makes any sense.

We perform two types of Sanchin in our dojo. There is an 'Isshin-Ryu' version with the vertical fist and traditional Isshin-Ryu blocks. In that version, the four gouges at the end are more gouges; in the other version we do (which I did in the video), we attempt to honor Goju-Ryu and we use the twisting punch and traditional blocks. In that version, the gouges are more of a separation; as if we were running our hands up the sides of a clay pot, putting our fingers into the mouth of the pot, and pulling it apart. I tend to prefer the Goju version we do; I don't know why.

I have been told that Sanchin is a lifetime study. Easy to learn the moves, very difficult to master the 'three battles'. You can test the physical part; you can maybe even test the mental part. How do you test the spiritual part except by knowing it yourself? I'm nowhere close to that. I have been told of a well-regarded sensei who has been doing Sanchin for over 30 years and feels he has done it 'right' twice.

So I keep practicing!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I feel the two highlighted parts above are part of the essence of the teachings of sanchin. Not so much the "hip flip" as you state, but, the tuck the tail bone "pelvic tilt" part which transfers the power down to the ground, and allows it to bounce and rebound up through a straight spine, with a tucked chin. With our structure intact it gives a direct route through our body allowing power transfer from ground to opponent. The way our hips move needs to be investigated over a long time to feel the shake and tremble in the hips needed to start the whole action. Power starts in the hips but goes down then up, allowing us to generate close in power. Think on it because it can be very hard to digest all at once.

Thank you, I will be thinking about it a lot. As mentioned, it's one of my favorite katas and I have no doubt I'll be doing it the rest of my life in one form or another.

 

[K-man]

As to our arm extensions, they are done with power; one test of our Sanchin is for someone to oppose the arms as they come out. The power behind the extension must be rooted in the ground or it's pure upper body muscle, which shows up as the karateka performing the kata will push his own upper body backwards when the punches are opposed. But although they are done with power, they are not done under tension, if that makes any sense.

Exactly, but you can also look at it as an extension of Ki.

 

[K-man]

I did learn both sanchin, with turns and without. I do both but I tend toward the turning version and teach it that way also. I feel that the turns hold a key to hip movement that enhances power transfer. Miyagi did drop the turns because of a demo he did, and he did not want backs turned while he watched the kata preformed, and from there it just caught on.

in the turning version, how many steps do you take after the turns?