Sanchin

[puunui]

Moving discussion in general martial arts to here:

It teaches correct posture and framing for maximum structural strength and stability both when moving and standing still. There are certain underlying assumptions that go hand in hand with this that Sanchin also teaches, such as unity of body and using your breath to augment your structure.

The kata doesn't look like much outwardly to laypeople but there's a lot going on there. Now certainly different arts create structure and power by emphasizing different qualities. The way Goju-ryu does it comes directly out of lengthy Sanchin practice, and it's unmistakable when you look at a karate-ka and you know what signs to look for.

I usually start teaching Sanchin to new students within the first few weeks, but it takes years to develop proficiency in. From some accounts, Master MIYAGI Chojun kept his students working on basics and hojo undo for a few years before teaching them Sanchin. And then he kept them on Sanchin for another 3+ years before teaching anything else. While very conservative by today's standards, this methodology underscores how important the kata is within the system.

Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido? If so, in what way?

 

[Manny]

Nice questions, I have the same questiosn does Sanchin help TKDoings? I think yes, because sanchin can help to develop a strong body, as I seen on sanching the sensei beats the student while he performs this kata while executing breathing, the sensei punches, slaps and even kicks the student and the student barely feel it.

Manny

 

[seasoned]

This is the most misunderstood kata.
Learning the moves of Sanchin would take a very short time, and would appear to be boring. But, the principles of breath, structure, and movement, and how they relate to power, balance, and fluidity would take a sensei with much insight and experience to teach it correctly.
Everyone, from many styles, could benefit from this kata, but few would grasp the full implications without proper dedication to practice.

 

[elder999]

This is the most misunderstood kata.
Learning the moves of Sanchin would take a very short time, and would appear to be boring. But, the principles of breath, structure, and movement, and how they relate to power, balance, and fluidity would take a sensei with much insight and experience to teach it correctly.
Everyone, from many styles, could benefit from this kata, but few would grasp the full implications without proper dedication to practice.

This. :asian:

I've been doing sanchin and tensho almost every day since I was 14 or 15 years old. I can say a lot for the benefits, but I think I'm only beginning to have an idea of what they mean....


A Korean stylist might think of it as a moving dan jun breathing exercise/meditation, but I think that's just a weak analogy on my part, and only scratches the surface of sanchin.

 

[seasoned]

Trying to explaining a feeling is near impossible. This is why this kata was done somewhat exclusively for years. Someone can show you the kata, but you have to feel the kata for yourself to experience the many benefits, as you have done elder999.
There is an art to testing someone while doing sanchin. Many do it wrong and focus on body tension and the student being able to take hits. The Okinawans would test with open hand slaps making sure your shoulders and hips were down and the body rooted on the out breath.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, but I get excited talking about sanchin.................

 

[dancingalone]

Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido? If so, in what way?

I'm not sure I can do the topic you bring up justice without some extensive reflection and writing on my part. It might be worth an essay later when I have digested my thoughts properly.

A few basic thoughts for now: It was good and bad at the same time for my aikido practice. (I'd be interested in K-Man's thoughts on this as well as we have very similar training backgrounds.)

I came into aikido late, well after I had already internalized a lot of Goju-ryu mechanics into myself. This was good in the sense that I understood balance and moving with my body as a unified connected unit. I could readily make irimi upon uke and then expand my center with a casual shrug of Goju power, for lack of a better term, and overwhelm uke in his unbalance. Some people, my wife included who is my sempai in aikido and even was my sensei for a time, remarked that my ki and sense of self was very highly developed when I first enrolled at their dojo. What they called ki and self were what I understood as harmony of the body enhanced by the focus of mind/spirit when making a physical movement - something I learned in great part from Sanchin.

Where my training in Goju-ryu was a hindrance, and this could be due to my temperament rather than the practice itself, was that early on in my aikido study I tended to be too hard and physical. I had good ability to create and project force so I tended to use it as an unintentional crutch rather than letting myself become 'nothing' and letting uke throw himself if that makes sense at all. Even today it is a tendency I must fight when practicing aikido. I practice aikido with the full acceptance that some might think that 'real' aikido eludes me. And maybe it does. Or maybe it doesn't - I've always been interested in other forms of aikido/jujutsu/hapkido/etc in part to gauge myself on the soft and yielding scale - and it IS a scale. Hopefully my technique will get more like my wife's with time.

With regard to TKD and Sanchin, I think it depends on the activity and type of TKD. I've never been able to integrate the same feeling of solidity and strength from Goju mechanics when playing around with modern TKD kicking, the type necessary to be successful at KKW Olympic sparring, but perhaps someone more talented and interested than me can manage it. On the other hand, I could see serious Sanchin practice being a profound influence on Korean karate types. Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.

 

[K-man]

Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido? If so, in what way?

Sanchin has many benefits and some of these would obviously apply across the board to most martial arts. However, I don't believe Aikido is one that would benefit unless you are doing one of the early aikido styles that relies on strength and speed. Sanchin locks up the body into an immovable mass when being tested. The analogy in aikido is when in the kneeling position you cannot be moved by someone pushing. These tests are diametrically opposed, one using strength against strength and one using softness against strength. For practitioners of Ki it is 'hard' Ki in Sanchin and 'soft' Ki in Suwari Waza.

The reason Sanchin is so important in Goju is that the upper body position trained in Sanchin translates into almost all the basic ukes. For example, in the kata we start out with a double Chudan uke. Think for the moment of just one arm. In Sanchin the arm has moved from inside to outside. If the arm had moved from outside to inside then we have Uchi uke. The position of the elbow is the same, the alignment of the forearm is the same and the plane of movement is the same. Same can be said for Kake uke, Soto Uke, Shuto uke etc. Turn the arm down for Gedan barai and again it is the same body structure. Turn the fist over and lift the arm, Jodan uke (although it could be argued that this is a later addition to Goju). Using both arms, we have Mawashi uke and once again the elbows are in and the same body structure is utilised.

Another exercise we practise is a version of 'push hands' called kakie. The beginning and end position of this exercise is the same as in Sanchin.

That is just the body structure as it relates to 'uke'. We can do the same exercise for moving, striking and the stances. The lessons within Sanchin kata for Goju practitioners are almost endless.

For TKD is it is less relevent For a couple of reasons. TKD kata are based on Shotokan karate and from what I have seen of their kata, they tend to have the arms further from the body. This does not utilise the body structure of Sanchin. That is not to say that the breathing and tensioning of the body would not be useful, obviously they would, which is the reason so many other karate styles have 'borrowed' Sanchin.

Many Goju practitioners could write a book about Sanchin. As a result it is easy to see why it has been said that; "Goju Ryu is Sanchin". :asian:

 

[elder999]

. Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.

It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's sanchin, as well.

 

[seasoned]

Sanchin has many benefits and some of these would obviously apply across the board to most martial arts. However, I don't believe Aikido is one that would benefit unless you are doing one of the early aikido styles that relies on strength and speed. Sanchin locks up the body into an immovable mass when being tested. The analogy in aikido is when in the kneeling position you cannot be moved by someone pushing. These tests are diametrically opposed, one using strength against strength and one using softness against strength. For practitioners of Ki it is 'hard' Ki in Sanchin and 'soft' Ki in Suwari Waza.

The reason Sanchin is so important in Goju is that the upper body position trained in Sanchin translates into almost all the basic ukes. For example, in the kata we start out with a double Chudan uke. Think for the moment of just one arm. In Sanchin the arm has moved from inside to outside. If the arm had moved from outside to inside then we have Uchi uke. The position of the elbow is the same, the alignment of the forearm is the same and the plane of movement is the same. Same can be said for Kake uke, Soto Uke, Shuto uke etc. Turn the arm down for Gedan barai and again it is the same body structure. Turn the fist over and lift the arm, Jodan uke (although it could be argued that this is a later addition to Goju). Using both arms, we have Mawashi uke and once again the elbows are in and the same body structure is utilised.

Another exercise we practise is a version of 'push hands' called kakie. The beginning and end position of this exercise is the same as in Sanchin.

That is just the body structure as it relates to 'uke'. We can do the same exercise for moving, striking and the stances. The lessons within Sanchin kata for Goju practitioners are almost endless.

For TKD is it is less relevent For a couple of reasons. TKD kata are based on Shotokan karate and from what I have seen of their kata, they tend to have the arms further from the body. This does not utilise the body structure of Sanchin. That is not to say that the breathing and tensioning of the body would not be useful, obviously they would, which is the reason so many other karate styles have 'borrowed' Sanchin.

Many Goju practitioners could write a book about Sanchin. As a result it is easy to see why it has been said that; "Goju Ryu is Sanchin". :asian:

Very good post.
If I may add, there are arts that focus there techniques at different distances pertaining to their opponent, and keep their opponent at striking distance.
Your statement "Goju Ryu is Sanchin" tells it all.GoJu is, and always has been a close in fighting art, not conducive for sparring, for the most part, but geared toward infighting as shown by the Goju kata. Perhaps at a rudimentary level sanchin may give some advantages pertaining to center of gravity and harmony of breathe.

 

[dancingalone]

It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's sanchin, as well.

I've always been curious about the various 100 man kumite exhibitions and whether the people who are able to complete the challenge attribute at least some of their resilience and durability to Sanchin.

Same thing with Andy Hug. I used to watch all his fights that I could, since he was obviously great. Didn't see much of Sanchin in his movement, but the kickboxing game is definitely something else.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm sure a lot of people already know this, but this is a good book on Sanchin:

"The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power," by Chris Wilder

It's pretty inexpensive on Amazon. Well worth it, in my opinion.

Isshin-Ryu does not apply tension all the way through the kata as some other styles do, as I understand it. We practice the 'three battles' as we perform the kata, just not the same way.

http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html

Some have claimed that Sanchin can be dangerous physically; this is also discussed in Chris Wilder's book.

I'm not qualified to say if Sanchin is or is not dangerous as practiced by various ryu. I do enjoy it, however.

 

[seasoned]

At the on set of teaching sanchin, proper breathing needs to be taught, and monitored through the ranks. When sanchin is taught using hard strikes for testing, the students tends to hold their breath while being hit, and this is a big factor in high BP. Breath should be free flowing and not restricted. In through the nose and out of the mouth with the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. It is as safe as we make it...............

 

[HammockRider]

What do you guys think about someone with high BP performing Sanchin? Would you need more info to come to an opinion?

 

[puunui]

A Korean stylist might think of it as a moving dan jun breathing exercise/meditation, but I think that's just a weak analogy on my part, and only scratches the surface of sanchin.

What in your opinion is the difference between sanchin and hapkido danjun breathing? Have you practiced danjun breathing, and if so, how do you do that exercise?

 

[puunui]

I'm not sure I can do the topic you bring up justice without some extensive reflection and writing on my part. It might be worth an essay later when I have digested my thoughts properly.

I thought you did pretty good. I always enjoy your thoughts and feelings on things as well as hearing about your personal experiences, because the way you write makes it easy for me to experience it from your perspective, without me having to extend myself into it to make it understandable. You make it easy for me to stay out of it. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly.

I came into aikido late, well after I had already internalized a lot of Goju-ryu mechanics into myself. This was good in the sense that I understood balance and moving with my body as a unified connected unit. I could readily make irimi upon uke and then expand my center with a casual shrug of Goju power, for lack of a better term, and overwhelm uke in his unbalance. Some people, my wife included who is my sempai in aikido and even was my sensei for a time, remarked that my ki and sense of self was very highly developed when I first enrolled at their dojo. What they called ki and self were what I understood as harmony of the body enhanced by the focus of mind/spirit when making a physical movement - something I learned in great part from Sanchin.

cool.

Where my training in Goju-ryu was a hindrance, and this could be due to my temperament rather than the practice itself, was that early on in my aikido study I tended to be too hard and physical. I had good ability to create and project force so I tended to use it as an unintentional crutch rather than letting myself become 'nothing' and letting uke throw himself if that makes sense at all.

Yes it does.

Even today it is a tendency I must fight when practicing aikido. I practice aikido with the full acceptance that some might think that 'real' aikido eludes me. And maybe it does. Or maybe it doesn't - I've always been interested in other forms of aikido/jujutsu/hapkido/etc in part to gauge myself on the soft and yielding scale - and it IS a scale. Hopefully my technique will get more like my wife's with time.

Rather than be judgmental and say the "real" aikido eludes you, I would say that your aikido is a reflection of your present state and that will change over time, as you change. As for forceful, I hear Osensei was pretty forceful himself. The story that comes to mind is the one where he is at a crowded train station where he parts the crowd like the red sea and walks through. If some didn't know it was osensei doing that, they may say that "real" aikido eluded that person as well.

With regard to TKD and Sanchin, I think it depends on the activity and type of TKD. I've never been able to integrate the same feeling of solidity and strength from Goju mechanics when playing around with modern TKD kicking, the type necessary to be successful at KKW Olympic sparring, but perhaps someone more talented and interested than me can manage it.

I think the feeling of solidity and strength is contained more in movement in taekwondo, which might be a different application of sanchin in goju ryu. One area where you can maintain that feeling of solidiity and strength right away is holding shields. I had these kajukenbo black belts join one time and when they held the shields or did hogu drills with us, they would tense their entire body up and yell really loud when anyone struck them. So I held the pad (that curved blue shield) with one finger, for roundhouse kick. No one could make me move, even a little. Then I did the same thing with my eyes closed with the same result. Their mouths were open and they couldn't figure out what I was doing. It was simply basic body mechanics, making the right muscles strong (which I think sanchin does), along with basic nonmoving rooting. When they asked me about it, I told them my secret was I ate wheaties religiously everyday, that it really works.

On the other hand, I could see serious Sanchin practice being a profound influence on Korean karate types. Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.

I think kyokushin sparring is very similar to taekwondo sparring, without the leg kicks.

 

[puunui]

For TKD is it is less relevent For a couple of reasons. TKD kata are based on Shotokan karate and from what I have seen of their kata, they tend to have the arms further from the body. This does not utilise the body structure of Sanchin. That is not to say that the breathing and tensioning of the body would not be useful, obviously they would, which is the reason so many other karate styles have 'borrowed' Sanchin.

Thank you for your very detailed post. One thing though is that many taekwondo practitioners perform the kukkiwon poomsae with long extended arms and legs, but they were not originally designed for that. The kukkiwon poomsae were meant to be done with tighter arm positions, which are closer to the body, to go along with shorter more natural stances.

 

[puunui]

It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's sanchin, as well.

What art do you study now? Kyokushinkai karate?

 

[puunui]

Same thing with Andy Hug. I used to watch all his fights that I could, since he was obviously great. Didn't see much of Sanchin in his movement, but the kickboxing game is definitely something else.

Andy Hug was big in korea. First time I heard of him was in a korean newspaper article, and for the longest time I thought his name was Andy Hook.

 

[puunui]

"The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power," by Chris Wilder

I have that; never read it though. I'll go pull it off the shelf tonight.

 

[Buka]

Sanchin is what Sanchin does. If it's good for you, so be it. If it's not good for you, so be it. If you've never done much of it, you really don't know.

To me - it's the first Kata I ever learned. Truthfully, I haven't done it in fifteen years. But it still rocks. Oh, it so fricken' rocks.