Ryan Carson - Stabbing Victim - Running Didn't Work.-Awareness

[JowGaWolf]

It honors the lesson if we can also learn from the situation.

This is the one thing that I would like to see other than justice carried out Not just for people who may be victims of a violent crime but also for those who teach Self Defense classes. Especially covering the main issue that was my concern. That Self-defense is not a tool set to confront (talking the offense to talk to an aggressive person.) It should not be thought of or mistaken as a tool, that when they see an Angry person that they can "reach out" to that person to talk them down just because they know self-defense.

I always believed that we as humans should learn from the hardships of others so that we don't make the same mistakes. I would also like to see people change the "stick your arm out" to create distance play book go away. We saw just how quickly that becomes useless when a knife slashes at your extended arm. It also doesn't help against getting stabbed. That extend arm should be the last step before physical confrontation. In the past I've seen many fights break out where someone says "Don't touch me."

If you have someone with you then the tactic should be Delay and Escape. The woman could have escaped to a greater distance while her boyfriend was in the confrontation stage. My wife once told me that she would stick with me if I got into a fight. I told her that if I was ever in a fight, that he needs to escape while they are focused on me and then get help. That's the game plan I want us to follow.

1. I'm stronger than my wife.
2. I can fight better than my wife
3. I can run faster and for longer than my wife.

All of this says she should make her escape before me. If my attackers are thinking about attacking me then they aren't thinking about attacking her. The longer I delay the sooner she can escape, and the sooner she can call for help.

When I taught self-defense classes. I would teach from 2 perspectives. As an individual and as a team. Each student got customized self-defense action plans based on the situation that they may find themselves in. I don't think many people teach Self-defense from a "team" perspective. I think things would have gone much better if those two had such a plan.

I'll have to look at the video again to see if the woman yelled stop. My approach for all attackers is to work against their singular focus to attack and harm me. I want to break that focus on every opportunity.

I did some work for this guy many years back and I have a copy of his book. He's known as the "Anger Guy" I've never read his book before but I think I'll take a look at it to see there are any similarities on what was in that video vs what the Author went through as a person with Anger Issues.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I gave it some more thought what I felt that I was seeing. A person who want to confront a wrong doer with self defense skills. To stop the guy that's doing wrong and then use my self defense skills to get out of danger. The skill yo confront someone is not the same skill for self defense.

That's what's missing because we never teach how to confront other while minimizing risk. I'm not saying we should teach that but maybe make clear that these skills are for self defense and not for "Being the hero"

I think about Wangs bus scenario and the skills to protect are different than the skills to defend. Offense is not the same as defense. Blocking is not the same as punching.

No one teaches how to approach a angry person destroying property. no teaches how to come to the aid of another. We teach the defense but not the offense. That's what it seems to me. That this wasn't understood when approaching the guy. My approach to helping others against danger is has always been different than my self defense approach.

Did the victim get into a self defense scenario? Yes he did. But only after the offense failed. I will make that really clear that self defense is not an offensive approach. Offense is not defense. The couse is called self defense and not Self Offense.

Here is the easiest way to avoid trouble, stay in your lane, keep your eyes, mouth, and hands to yourself. Property destruction is not a reason to get involved. In 1989 I saw some guy get the brakes beat off him for interrupting a fight between a couple. Turns out that the ho didn’t want to be saved, she and her pimp both turned on the interrupting party. They dragged him around a corner after they beat him down.

 

[marvin8]

I finally got to see the beginning of the clip. Yeah that would have been a 911 call and a walk in the opposite direction. I didn't realize the guy originally walked by them and did nothing. And that they started to walk towards him when the Angry guy started to break stuff. The part that I originally saw look like the interaction was much closer but he went into rhe Angry guy's space. That's definitely an off ramp. While he's busy breaking stuff increase distance. Yep 911 call definitely.

Not your "bar distance" where you may accidentally walk up on an angry person. And the interaction happened during the explosive part where he could hold it in. That is literally the definition of no control.

I don't think the police would have closed distance that soon. They would have let him blown some more steam and burn some more energy while back up was on the way.

They had a good 20 feet on the approach and a lot of road for a "GPS reroute"

After watching the video on a monitor, the Analysis Time spent to determine if it was safe to approach was unnecessarily too short. If time is on your side then use it. Things may have turned out much differently if 10 seconds was used to back up to the bench vs walking forward.

Angry guy is going to prison though. He said it then did it. Lives didn't get better that night.

Agree.

Some guidelines:

1. Don't sit at a bus stop with your girlfriend, in a suit and dress, at 4:00 am, especially in sketchy neighborhoods (situational awareness).
2. When a guy in a hoodie walks past you as you're sitting at the bus stop, be aware.
3. Don't get up and walk towards the guy in the hoodie.
4. When the guy in the hoodie starts vandalizing scooters, do not continue to walk towards him. Secure your GF and walk the other way.
5. Call the police, if you're concerned.
6. When the guy in the hoodie says, “Stop looking at me. Go back, I'll kill you!” don't stop in his pathway, continue to look at him and try to reason with him by saying "Chill, chill," instead walk away.
7. Don't extend your rear hand, touch his chest and think that's a safe distance. Both extend your lead hands + weapon + step is a safe zone.
8. Don't fall over the bench you were previously sitting on. Be aware of your surroundings, possible barriers or weapons.

Some skills (e.g., control space, positioning, timing) developed in the ring transfer to the streets, if fighting is necessary.

A real knife fight where the attacker moves, doesn't stand still:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2. When a guy in a hoodie walks past you ...

9. Always wear a hoodie. If you are the bad guy, you don't have to worry about anything.
10. Always arm yourself to the teeth when you go out.

 

[Steve]

Some good advice already shared. But sometimes, you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whether it's a piano falling on your head, a car crashing into your restaurant, or a person with a knife. When your time is up, it's up.

While some amount of retrospective analysis might help others react more effectively in a given situation, sometimes it's just pure bad luck. Sometimes, what should help actually makes things worse.

 

[drop bear]

Deleted

 

[Hot Lunch]

If a grown man has the gall to do something in public that would warrant physical intervention, you should always presume that he's fully prepared for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i wouldn’t have gotten involved, knives are iffy even for the most skilled.

having said that it is possible and some teachers have posted it such as Tim Kennedy.

I very much dislike when people say just run, why couldn’t the other guy just chase you? Or what if you’re in an elevator or with a loved one…or out of shape or older

Yeah, that's such ubiquitous advice, and I've seen it given by people I could run down within 30 yards, if I gave them a 10-yard head start. If you are slow, "running" is just turning your back on someone so you're no longer able to even attempt to defend.

I'm all in favor of exiting the situation where possible, but like so many other factors, you have to deal with reality.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, that's such ubiquitous advice, and I've seen it given by people I could run down within 30 yards, if I gave them a 10-yard head start. If you are slow, "running" is just turning your back on someone so you're no longer able to even attempt to defend.

I'm all in favor of exiting the situation where possible, but like so many other factors, you have to deal with reality.

What people leave out of that, is however much time you would spend training MA, you have to spend that much time (or more likely more) training to run instead. And that will leave you quicker if you get lax as well.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Yeah, that's such ubiquitous advice, and I've seen it given by people I could run down within 30 yards, if I gave them a 10-yard head start. If you are slow, "running" is just turning your back on someone so you're no longer able to even attempt to defend.

I'm all in favor of exiting the situation where possible, but like so many other factors, you have to deal with reality.

I'm guessing that your level of physical fitness is likely to be far higher than that of a random attacker.

Perhaps whether you should run or fight should depend on which one you're better at, even if you suck at both. If you're a 2 (out of 10) at running, and a 1 in fighting, you should probably run. If you're a 2 in fighting and 1 at running, you should probably fight.

Here's a scenario that immediately comes to mind: there's an abusive relationship. Man is beating his girlfriend. Girlfriend decides she's had enough. What should she do?

I wouldn't recommend that she fight back. If he was only going to slap her once or twice, her fighting back just changed that to a full-blown beatdown. She'd have been better off trying to run.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm guessing that your level of physical fitness is likely to be far higher than that of a random attacker.

Perhaps whether you should run or fight should depend on which one you're better at, even if you suck at both. If you're 2 (out of 10) at running, and a 1 in fighting, you should probably run. If you're a 2 in fighting and 1 at running, you should probably fight.

Here's a scenario that immediately comes to mind: there's an abusive relationship. Man is beating his girlfriend. Girlfriend decides she's had enough. What should she do?

I wouldn't recommend that she fight back. If he was only going to slap her once or twice, her fighting back just changed that to a full-blown beatdown. She'd have been better off trying to run.

I almost agree. But one change. Whether you run or fight should depend on which one you're better at, relative to the attacker. If you're better at running then fighting, but you know for sure the attackers faster than you, but doesn't look like he'd be good in a fight, I'd go with fighting anyway.

But if the person looks like they'd be good in a fight, but slow, and I'm also slow but bad in a fight, i'll take my chances with running.

Obviously ability to run or fight and knowledge/risk of weapons change this.

 

[Hot Lunch]

but doesn't look like he'd be good in a fight, I'd go with fighting anyway.

But if the person looks like they'd be good in a fight, but slow,

"Looks like they'd be good in a fight?" If we don't personally know the attacker, how are we assessing this without fighting them first?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

"Looks like they'd be good in a fight?" If we don't personally know the attacker, how are we assessing this without fighting them first?

Sometimes you do know the attacker. Or you see them attack someone else first. Or something simple - if they're built like a football linemen, I'd wager that they'd be better at fighting then running, compared to the average person

 

[Oily Dragon]

Bringing this back to the actual murder, this situation was 100% avoidable simply due to situational awareness.

There's no need to run, or fight, if you simply notice the crazy dude down the street and avoid him at all costs. Which is something people who live in the city live with and have to be aware of every day. Street, subway, Broadway. If he starts following you, sure, run, but that's not what happened here.

What happened here is the deceased made a beeline for someone acting violent, and became the bullseye. They intervened with someone in crisis, without any idea of how to handle the situation.

I think a lot of people who work in the mental health field know that engaging with such a person in such a state is dangerous even in a clinical setting. I personally know wonderful people who have needed 4 point restraint or they would have drawn blood from their friends.

And to keep it really real, there was no "running"involved in this case. The deceased tried to disengage, tripped, fell, and was stabbed. That's what the video shows.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And to keep it really real, there was no "running"involved in this case. The deceased tried to disengage, tripped, fell, and was stabbed. That's what the video shows.

Watch the video again. He clearly tried to run. He even did so by looking behind him instead of in front of him. Not everyone has a sprinter's form when running. Some people can't run let alone sprint. Being that he was at a wedding, his shoes probably didn't have the best grip.

This brings up another issue about running. Do you look away from your attacker so that you can see where you are running? Do you keep you eyes on the attacker at the risk of tripping over something?

What would you teach for self defense about running away.

I also noticed that his girlfriend stopped at a greater distance than the guy.

 

[Hot Lunch]

This brings up another issue about running. Do you look away from your attacker so that you can see where you are running? Do you keep you eyes on the attacker at the risk of tripping over something?

When you turn to a particular direction, it seems to me that you would subconsciously scan for obstacles. At this point, you can determine when you can and can't look back.

I say look back when you can. If the attacker is a better runner than you are and is closing in, you might as well turn around and face the inevitable. Sooner you do it, the more breath you'll have. You're gonna need it. Otherwise, if you're putting more distance between yourself and the attacker, then keep looking straight ahead. Obviously, you don't know which one is happening if you don't turn back to look.

 

[drop bear]

Some good advice already shared. But sometimes, you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whether it's a piano falling on your head, a car crashing into your restaurant, or a person with a knife. When your time is up, it's up.

While some amount of retrospective analysis might help others react more effectively in a given situation, sometimes it's just pure bad luck. Sometimes, what should help actually makes things worse.

Recently we had two good Samaritans killed when they stopped to fix a broken down vehicle.

They got smashed by a drunk driver.

We could go down the same route of analysis as with the SD. But it would probably get a bit cringe.

 

[Steve]

Recently we had two good Samaritans killed when they stopped to fix a broken down vehicle.

They got smashed by a drunk driver.

We could go down the same route of analysis as with the SD. But it would probably get a bit cringe.

It's always a bit cringe when you're clinically discussing someone's murder and suggesting in some way that it was at least partially his fault.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm guessing that your level of physical fitness is likely to be far higher than that of a random attacker.

Perhaps whether you should run or fight should depend on which one you're better at, even if you suck at both. If you're a 2 (out of 10) at running, and a 1 in fighting, you should probably run. If you're a 2 in fighting and 1 at running, you should probably fight.

Here's a scenario that immediately comes to mind: there's an abusive relationship. Man is beating his girlfriend. Girlfriend decides she's had enough. What should she do?

I wouldn't recommend that she fight back. If he was only going to slap her once or twice, her fighting back just changed that to a full-blown beatdown. She'd have been better off trying to run.

Personally, my general fitness likely is better than a random attacker. I wouldn’t bet on my running ability, though, if they look in any reasonable shape. My knees don’t allow for any consistent training for running, and my asthma kicks in at odd times. 10 years ago, I’d have been more sure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What would you teach for self defense about running away.

As others have suggested, if you want running to be part of your strategy, you should train it. As for where to look, if you run, you should run. Looking back while running is like putting your hands in your pocket while fighting. It might be worth it to look back at some point, but that should be saved for when there’s a good opportunity - perhaps while rounding a corner, when you can look a little to the side and still somewhat see where you’re going (and are slowed for the turn).