Rokas small update - broken leg

[Cynik75]

We argued more than once about Rokas from Martial Arts Journey, so a little update: scissor sweep, broken leg. Nothing important, but it will be useful for future talks about methodology, safety. full contact, illegal moves, etc.:

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. A bit silly.

Look. I think you need to be aware of the saftey of your partners almost always.

Mabye at some high levels of competition you can rip people's arms and legs off. But for training or for an amateur competition it is not worth it.

If you want to be the sort of guy who can hurt people. Learn to hold people down. Then you can beat people up as much as you want and still not break your training partners.

(Side note two hours for an x ray is fast. I wonder what country that was.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

We argued more than once about Rokas from Martial Arts Journey, so a little update: scissor sweep, broken leg. Nothing important, but it will be useful for future talks about methodology, safety. full contact, illegal moves, etc.:

I wasn't quite sure how his leg broke because I thought he was talking about this

then I saw the video and he was talking about this

I used to train this technique, but it was always known for destroying the knee. The major difference is the height and the direction that we roll. When doing this technique low, we would always roll into our training partner and not away from our training partner. While still dangerous, having the knee turn towards the center offers a much friendlier turn. We would also never use it in sparring. It was always a drill. If we spar and go for this technique, the sparring will stop, and the drill would begin. The sparring partner does not try to resist this technique. Instead, he slowly goes with it and the technique is slowly applied.

Using it in sparring any other way runs the risk of someone turning in the more destructive direction.

Roll vs Drop. Roll sends the energy in a different direction. Dropping just locks the leg and now the weight is going downward onto the joint. You can see some weight drops here.

Always choose your sparring partner wisely.

 

[JowGaWolf]

(Side note two hours for an x ray is fast. I wonder what country that was.)

I don't know. But I would be a little more concerned that they had trouble with the medicine used when operating on him..

 

[Darren]

In case it is always and always stated”take care of each other” of course the flexibility,tightness,ability,and toughness of the individual student is taken into account after awhile and adjusted accordingly then again it’s stated”take care of each other. No one wants to be sitting and healing and watching when there’s so much rolling that can be done. Take care of each other!!

 

[skribs]

We used a scissor take-down in our blue belt curriculum in Taekwondo. However, in this case, there were a few differences from how it's done in many of the videos above:

1. We would drop our hip first, so we are not putting our weight onto our opponent's knee.
2. We would only do this in drills, not live sparring. So there was never any reason to resist it.

I was shocked to hear in BJJ that the scissor take-down is a banned move. And maybe the way we did it in TKD would be fine (there are other leg-vs-leg sweeps like tripod sweep or SLX). But I've avoided it just because I don't want to cause any issues.

 

[geezer]

We used a scissor take-down in our blue belt curriculum in Taekwondo. However, in this case, there were a few differences from how it's done in many of the videos above:

1. We would drop our hip first, so we are not putting our weight onto our opponent's knee.
2. We would only do this in drills, not live sparring. So there was never any reason to resist it.

I was shocked to hear in BJJ that the scissor take-down is a banned move. And maybe the way we did it in TKD would be fine (there are other leg-vs-leg sweeps like tripod sweep or SLX). But I've avoided it just because I don't want to cause any issues.

Some techniques are better to avoid ...at least for normal people not involved in actual combat.

In the branch of Wing Chun I studied, there were some vicious knee locks that were practiced by some of European instructors. My old training partner moved to LA and shared an apartment with a well known European guy who trained them a lot ...and he ended up with a seriously screwed up knee (ACL replacement and some other damage, back when they couldn't do as good a job repairing that stuff).

In my group we had one or two accidents ...a lot of screaming and rolling on the ground, scary but not ultimately that serious. Anyway, I decided to just cut out all the knee locking drills and focused on other stuff. Due to my own past knee and ankle injuries from skiing, etc. I focused on WC hands and the simpler kicking moves. Personally, I like to stay upright and keep my feet firmly on the ground these days.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some techniques are better to avoid ...at least for normal people not involved in actual combat.

In the branch of Wing Chun I studied, there were some vicious knee locks that were practiced by some of European instructors. My old training partner moved to LA and shared an apartment with a well known European guy who trained them a lot ...and he ended up with a seriously screwed up knee (ACL replacement and some other damage, back when they couldn't do as good a job repairing that stuff).

In my group we had one or two accidents ...a lot of screaming and rolling on the ground, scary but not ultimately that serious. Anyway, I decided to just cut out all the knee locking drills and focused on other stuff. Due to my own past knee and ankle injuries from skiing, etc. I focused on WC hands and the simpler kicking moves. Personally, I like to stay upright and keep my feet firmly on the ground these days.

A twist to the right instead of the left, or a fall putting weight on the knee is all that's needed for it to go bad.

Ironically TMA gets a bad rap about traditional techniques not working. In this case it's pretty straight forward. For use in combat and not in sport.

 

[skribs]

Some techniques are better to avoid ...at least for normal people not involved in actual combat.

In the branch of Wing Chun I studied, there were some vicious knee locks that were practiced by some of European instructors. My old training partner moved to LA and shared an apartment with a well known European guy who trained them a lot ...and he ended up with a seriously screwed up knee (ACL replacement and some other damage, back when they couldn't do as good a job repairing that stuff).

In my group we had one or two accidents ...a lot of screaming and rolling on the ground, scary but not ultimately that serious. Anyway, I decided to just cut out all the knee locking drills and focused on other stuff. Due to my own past knee and ankle injuries from skiing, etc. I focused on WC hands and the simpler kicking moves. Personally, I like to stay upright and keep my feet firmly on the ground these days.

Only grappling leg injury we ever had was from two white belts (brother and sister) practicing a basic trip sweep and the sister resisted, hurt her knee. I nearly had my knee crumple doing a basic trip sweep.

We had dozens of folks per year test for red belt, that's the test the scissor sweeps were used. I never saw a single injury from them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only grappling leg injury we ever had was from two white belts (brother and sister) practicing a basic trip sweep and the sister resisted, hurt her knee. I nearly had my knee crumple doing a basic trip sweep.

We had dozens of folks per year test for red belt, that's the test the scissor sweeps were used. I never saw a single injury from them.

It's a dangerous technique because a twist in the wrong direction can cause more damage or no twist at all can break the leg as well.

The way that you are doing the technique is not the same way that it's being done to those who have suffered injury from the technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some techniques are better to avoid ...at least for normal people not involved in actual combat.

In the branch of Wing Chun I studied, there were some vicious knee locks that were practiced by some of European instructors. My old training partner moved to LA and shared an apartment with a well known European guy who trained them a lot ...and he ended up with a seriously screwed up knee (ACL replacement and some other damage, back when they couldn't do as good a job repairing that stuff).

In my group we had one or two accidents ...a lot of screaming and rolling on the ground, scary but not ultimately that serious. Anyway, I decided to just cut out all the knee locking drills and focused on other stuff. Due to my own past knee and ankle injuries from skiing, etc. I focused on WC hands and the simpler kicking moves. Personally, I like to stay upright and keep my feet firmly on the ground these days.

Alot of the stuff is dangerous. You just have to understand how dangerous so that the limitations and rules can be set to make it less dangerous.

A good example is when I was at the meet up and I spoke briefly of the downward punch. I gave strict limitations of how to use the technique and to not go beyond that. I think during that day I told them that they are welcome to try the technique and experience.
1. No hard punches only light taps
2. No more than 3 punches and then don't do it again.

Having been injured by this punch, I knew this was safe enough to prevent tearing the muscle and that it's just enough to experience the difference, without experiencing the damage.

I wouldn't use it in sparring because sometimes we move right when we should move left. Sometimes we resist a lock instead of going with it. Sometimes we as students have to understand that we "play with knives" and that we should approach certain training as if it's the most dangerous thing that we could be doing at the time.

Imagine someone seeing this technique and felt that they had a need to "Pressure test it" against a resisting opponent.

 

[geezer]

Only grappling leg injury we ever had was from two white belts (brother and sister) practicing a basic trip sweep and the sister resisted, hurt her knee. I nearly had my knee crumple doing a basic trip sweep.

What you said above. In practice, resistance can be worse than futile! Apologies to any Trekkies out there.

One time back in the '80s while teaching at a park, I accidentally caused a knee injury in training while demonstrating how our stance alone can be used to unbalance and uproot. The student ( a man about 25, who was senior ranking enough to know better) chose to turn and resist rather than go along with the demo. Result: His knee bent in a really odd way and left him screaming on the ground.

I knew some basic first aid and CPR, but was not in any way qualified to try to correct a joint injury. So. while I was sending another student to find a phone for an ambulance (no cell phones back then), a visiting Shaolin kung-fu instructor jumped in and yanked the man's leg straight. Luckily, it did the trick.

It turned out that the injured guy later told me he had a "trick knee" and this had happened before. He also admitted deliberately resisting without giving me notice "just to see if he could". Dumb. ...And me (as a novice instructor) even dumber.

BTW: Back then (and maybe now) a lot of martial arts instructors (especially in CMA people) pretended to be traditional medicine experts without any formal training. You know, they put on the "all knowing sifu/sensei/guru act". So the "Shaolin" guy ...although he apparently solved the problem, he could have just as easily made things worse. And there I was, a broke student, just finishing grad school with no liability insurance covering my new "club". It could have been really bad.

 

[geezer]

We argued more than once about Rokas from Martial Arts Journey, so a little update: scissor sweep, broken leg. Nothing important, but it will be useful for future talks about methodology, safety. full contact, illegal moves, etc.:

You know this didn't happen in the US. because there was no litigation mentioned.

Here, where we have to pay for our own health care, and where we pay A LOT, we also tend to sue in court, a lot. Even if you can't prove deliberate negligence by the school, or deliberate malice on the part of the other person, just the cost of the legal process usually results in a sizable settlement. Dog Bros. rules not withstanding ...if you get the reference.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wasn't quite sure how his leg broke because I thought he was talking about this

then I saw the video and he was talking about this

I used to train this technique, but it was always known for destroying the knee. The major difference is the height and the direction that we roll. When doing this technique low, we would always roll into our training partner and not away from our training partner. While still dangerous, having the knee turn towards the center offers a much friendlier turn. We would also never use it in sparring. It was always a drill. If we spar and go for this technique, the sparring will stop, and the drill would begin. The sparring partner does not try to resist this technique. Instead, he slowly goes with it and the technique is slowly applied.

Using it in sparring any other way runs the risk of someone turning in the more destructive direction.

Roll vs Drop. Roll sends the energy in a different direction. Dropping just locks the leg and now the weight is going downward onto the joint. You can see some weight drops here.

Always choose your sparring partner wisely.

My old instructor broke my leg in training doing that first video of yours when i eas about 11. My brother wasn't getting it quite right, so he demostrated on me and somehow managed to break my leg with it. Blamed it on me flinching when I fell.

 

[drop bear]

We used a scissor take-down in our blue belt curriculum in Taekwondo. However, in this case, there were a few differences from how it's done in many of the videos above:

1. We would drop our hip first, so we are not putting our weight onto our opponent's knee.
2. We would only do this in drills, not live sparring. So there was never any reason to resist it.

I was shocked to hear in BJJ that the scissor take-down is a banned move. And maybe the way we did it in TKD would be fine (there are other leg-vs-leg sweeps like tripod sweep or SLX). But I've avoided it just because I don't want to cause any issues.

I did it for years no dramas.

But it is like jumping guard (also illegal)

You can do it like a normal person. Or you can crash violently in to their knees crippling them.

And you won't know which one they are doing untill they have done it.

 

[O'Malley]

Brokas.




More seriously, this sucks. Not a fan of the character but nobody should get this hurt in sparring, I hope he'll recover soon.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My old instructor broke my leg in training doing that first video of yours when i eas about 11. My brother wasn't getting it quite right, so he demostrated on me and somehow managed to break my leg with it. Blamed it on me flinching when I fell.

That sounds like an instructor who knows what the application is but really hasn't spent any time training and using it. I'm not sure why your instructor would try it on an 11-year-old child either. But that is another issue.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Kani Basami - flying scissors throw. The problem isn't with the "scissors". The problem is with the "flying" portion of the technique.

You can execute the scissors takedown from the ground safely via Iminari roll (and a few other entries).

There's a version where you support your weight with one hand on the ground which is safe enough for demos and controlled sparring with skilled partners. (Although still risky in serious competitive sparring.) I've used it as a counter to a single leg, but only when I felt very confident that I could control exactly where my weight went. (The risk is greatly reduced in this application because you are supporting half your body weight on your hand and your opponent is supporting the other half by holding your leg.)

And there's the full flying version (as seen in the examples in Rokas's video, where you just throw your whole body into the air at your opponent and hope that you judged the distance and velocity correctly so that you end up close enough to execute the scissor and not so close so that you crash into the side of their knee with your entire body weight, locking their knee out and breaking their leg. Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to make this safe in sparring. Even if you have the skill to always execute the technique safely and correctly against a static target, the fact that your opponent is always working against your ability to control the distance means that you can't reliably ensure your body ends up in the right place relative to your partner.

 

[skribs]

Kani Basami - flying scissors throw. The problem isn't with the "scissors". The problem is with the "flying" portion of the technique.

You can execute the scissors takedown from the ground safely via Iminari roll (and a few other entries).

There's a version where you support your weight with one hand on the ground which is safe enough for demos and controlled sparring with skilled partners. (Although still risky in serious competitive sparring.) I've used it as a counter to a single leg, but only when I felt very confident that I could control exactly where my weight went. (The risk is greatly reduced in this application because you are supporting half your body weight on your hand and your opponent is supporting the other half by holding your leg.)

And there's the full flying version (as seen in the examples in Rokas's video, where you just throw your whole body into the air at your opponent and hope that you judged the distance and velocity correctly so that you end up close enough to execute the scissor and not so close so that you crash into the side of their knee with your entire body weight, locking their knee out and breaking their leg. Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to make this safe in sparring. Even if you have the skill to always execute the technique safely and correctly against a static target, the fact that your opponent is always working against your ability to control the distance means that you can't reliably ensure your body ends up in the right place relative to your partner.

One thing I'm starting to look at (because of this video and thread) is where the "flying scissors" and "reap" end, and a legitimate legal technique begins.

Personally, I find the Judo-style trip sweeps to be dangerous. I was rolling with a white belt, and the way he fell when I tripped him, he almost took my knee out on the way down.

 

[drop bear]

One thing I'm starting to look at (because of this video and thread) is where the "flying scissors" and "reap" end, and a legitimate legal technique begins.

Personally, I find the Judo-style trip sweeps to be dangerous. I was rolling with a white belt, and the way he fell when I tripped him, he almost took my knee out on the way down.

I steer away from high amplitude throws in general