Rokas Is Coming for the Military

[drop bear]

"Have you actually seen a Sensai ask a student, what's your background and can you teach me this?" (1:33)

I've seen this quite a bit in the circles I run in. I think they call it sharing martial arts knowledge.

Any martial arts teacher of worth understands. That their students may be new to the school and the school's system, but not new to martial arts. Having students with additional martial arts background is a good thing for Martial Arts teachers.

2 minutes I won't get back lol

It is a lot rarer. Because many martial arts schools don't attract people who know what they are on about. And this is because there is a culture resistant to instructors or schools looking foolish.

So I can be taken down because I constantly come across people who are legitimately good.

 

[drop bear]

Its a niche thing that would have only been devoloped recently so still covered mainly by current protections. If it existed im sure i would have seen a commercially avalible reprint of a U.K manual on hand to hand comabt, but the closest i have is from WW2 and fairbairns books.

Granted not much of a market for U.K reprints like the U.S army manuals you see dotted around, but i say that yet have found some quite niche books from WW2.

Best you have and i think the bulk of people would find is the commando display team and they even preface it with "some of its for display useage" so you dont really know whats taught like that or for display. Actually inspired me to have a look around to see what the most recent manuals that have been released are, if i remmber i will post results here.

I have how ever just recalled some footage i saw somone post of a training event where they had a hall clearing and included grappling, but i dont know if thats a "system" or just try to lever them with your rifle, keep them off it and throw them to the ground. (which i think is movements taught in bayonet fighting) Was a breif clip and what he did is uncelar and i dont recall the video it was in.

Bear in mind your average UK citizen in body armour probably outweighs your average Afghani. And will probably win a grappling match.

If we went against Russia or something I think the dynamics there might change a bit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is a lot rarer. Because many martial arts schools don't attract people who know what they are on about. And this is because there is a culture resistant to instructors or schools looking foolish.

I guess I'm fortunate with the people I've met. I'm the one filming but I had a go at it.

We were like Fish out of water lol

 

[drop bear]

I guess I'm fortunate with the people I've met. I'm the one filming but I had a go at it.

We were like Fish out of water lol
View attachment 26759

Capoeira?

Did you spar?

Did you get flogged?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Capoeira?

Did you spar?

Did you get flogged?

BJJ.

We didn't spar that we shared training exercises and concepts. More like. "Hey show me what you guys do" training, moves , etc. IT helped round us off and prevented us from being full of ourselves. It's easy to become blind to the truth that other people know martial arts too, when you only train or share martial arts in one group. So our teacher was big in sharing knowledge with other instructors and exposing us to it.

The only thing my teacher back then didn't like was when one of his students he was grooming to be a Sifu told him that he wanted to train Sanda a few days instead of Jow Ga after that Sanda school put the hurt on our school (I haven't shown any of those clips). The teacher didn't like that I all because it was like saying to the teacher, your school sucks, I want to go train with a different teacher. That's not something that someone wants to hear from someone they are trying to groom as a recognized teacher. But other than that he was cool with us exchanging knowledge and experiences with other martial arts systems.

So on that day. We were able to get a BJJ practitioner to come in and give us a little BJJ experience nothing big. No TMA egos or anything. It was an enjoyable day.

It think I would have been flogged on that day. The exercise was doing that day was difficult for me. I don't know why, but I was just as bad as those other 2 guys. I also felt very heavy as my arms never had to support my weight like that.

 

[geezer]

"Have you actually seen a Sensai ask a student, what's your background and can you teach me this?" (1:33)
...I've seen this quite a bit in the circles I run in. I think they call it sharing martial arts knowledge.

Yeah. I agree with that approach. I only teach a few people though. One of my guys recently asked me how I felt about him cross-training under another FMA instructor in town (who is really good, BTW).

My answer was, "It depends".
"On what?", he asked.
"On how you feel about sharing what you learn!"

IMO cross training just makes us all smarter and better... But then I'm not a commercial instructor with a god-like reputation to maintain.

 

[drop bear]

BJJ.

We didn't spar that we shared training exercises and concepts. More like. "Hey show me what you guys do" training, moves , etc. IT helped round us off and prevented us from being full of ourselves. It's easy to become blind to the truth that other people know martial arts too, when you only train or share martial arts in one group. So our teacher was big in sharing knowledge with other instructors and exposing us to it.

The only thing my teacher back then didn't like was when one of his students he was grooming to be a Sifu told him that he wanted to train Sanda a few days instead of Jow Ga after that Sanda school put the hurt on our school (I haven't shown any of those clips). The teacher didn't like that I all because it was like saying to the teacher, your school sucks, I want to go train with a different teacher. That's not something that someone wants to hear from someone they are trying to groom as a recognized teacher. But other than that he was cool with us exchanging knowledge and experiences with other martial arts systems.

So on that day. We were able to get a BJJ practitioner to come in and give us a little BJJ experience nothing big. No TMA egos or anything. It was an enjoyable day.

It think I would have been flogged on that day. The exercise was doing that day was difficult for me. I don't know why, but I was just as bad as those other 2 guys. I also felt very heavy as my arms never had to support my weight like that.

This is the difference.

Bjj turns up to our gym and he rolls or spars or whatever.

If he murders everyone in the room. Great. Because no ego.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is the difference.

Bjj turns up to our gym and he rolls or spars or whatever.

If he murders everyone in the room. Great. Because no ego.

That makes sense. you should learn kung fu so that wouldn't happen to you

 

[drop bear]

That makes sense. you should learn kung fu so that wouldn't happen to you

No.

I want that to happen to me.

That is the point.

Getting some great BJJ guy in and just doing drills would disappoint me.

 

[Tez3]

Bear in mind your average UK citizen in body armour probably outweighs your average Afghani. And will probably win a grappling match.

If we went against Russia or something I think the dynamics there might change a bit.

You haven't been to Afghanistan have you? They aren't particularly small people, our Gurkhas are smaller.

As for Russians you should know our rugby playing Fijian and South African soldiers are built like brick outhouses.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Bear in mind your average UK citizen in body armour probably outweighs your average Afghani. And will probably win a grappling match.

If we went against Russia or something I think the dynamics there might change a bit.

Given the U.K's armour system for Afganistan was heavy(to the point of burdensome), and you also couldnt shoulder your rifle right while prone, its probbly a good thing it wasnt a convetional military and standards varied quite a bit. Also i think the U.K has the record for the most recent legitimate bayonet charge and it was in that war funnily enough. (they fixed the armour things at various points, i forget when/which gen of osprey it was)

The dynamics for russia is largely going to be mobile warfare, its more open ground than built up. and then the built up areas are going to be fortified, and backed up with armoured vehicles, aircraft etc and there is going to be a lack of concern about civilians, so less need to breech buildings**, or not just throw Fragmentation grenades into them. (that and if i recall, Russians buildings tend to be pretty resistant to grenades, so it would be more applciable than in some other places, at least the apartment blocks) The recent urban dealings have basically highlighted failings in training it for some countries, it doesnt need to be your focus* unless thats what you expect the war to be like, but you should also cover it as everywhere has some form of buildings. Hand to hand comabt is like the last thing in the scale of likelhoods, even in urban fighting, more like to get shot, or have your building be missiled, or have a tank fire into it etc. and then your more liekly to bayonet them stab them or beat them with your rifle than go bare handed.

Oh on that, part of the point of miltiary combatives is and if its true, the U.K found that in WW1 soldiers with some combat sport education did better on average in hand to hand fighting/trench attacking than ones that didnt, so thats the cover there. Give everyone a minor education in it, increase the odds of them wining in close combat. (granted i dont think it can be ********, like if you teach them to throw chi balls they are probbly going to die when somone shoots them) You can not generalise them though, they can be fully fleshed out complex systems, or just exist to increase aggression and give you a gloss over on how to fight. I recall reading a US army one, and the bulk of the manual was rifle retention, then retention of pistol, then knife/other weapon like that then the last part and least covered was bare hands.

*Unless your a specilist for urban warfare, but then you are probbly lacking in other military skills due to it.
** Breeching in the more police sense than the military one. In that you dont use a missile launcher to blow a hole in the side of the building then throw grenades into it and clear it. Or dont call a plane to drop a boomb on it etc.

 

[Anarax]

Yeah. A lot of it is rubbish.

Scars is a really good example.

All magic instructors and the deadly streets.

Look at those 6 kills you can get on someone doing a terrible takedown at 1/4 speed with no commitment. "I ain't training for sport"

 

[qwksilver61]

I think it's safe to say that if a soldier is fighting with their bare hands, a whole lot of things have gone wrong.

take a look at Russian soldiers, Chinese

 

[qwksilver61]

take a look at Russian soldiers, Chinese

just sayin’

 

[Deleted member 39746]

take a look at Russian soldiers, Chinese

Neither the Russians or Chinese are more prone to hand to hand combat than other nations. (although i think the chinese may be more prone to it out of the two, not looked them up as much, i know they are better at warfare than some propganda from 40 years ago wants you to belive)

If you are talking about the peoples armed police force (i think its called) Its job is to basically be a paramilitary Police force. Unless i am mistaking it with another unit, it would do riot put downs, protestor issue and armed issued (including putting down rebel cells) So its duties leave to need more training and have more use for hand to hand combat than the normal soldier as it can find its self doing things in the cities of china, or the jungles or deserts. (im presuming they have units spread out over the diffrent regions of china)

As for the Russians, internal police would have a similar scope to them, but their military wouldnt be more prone to hand to hand than any western one, see my points about russia being more open land than built up. Actually China is as well, just has big population concentrations as far as i recall.


@drop bear @Anarax God i nearly brought a SCARS video set, $400 no preview videos, hell the systema site at least gives you a legitimate preview of their videos so you can see what the quality is like and whats covered and how they do things. thank god my senses kicked in before i dumped that much money into it. (can find that **** on youtube)

 

[Tez3]

Given the U.K's armour system for Afganistan was heavy(to the point of burdensome), and you also couldnt shoulder your rifle right while prone, its probbly a good thing it wasnt a convetional military and standards varied quite a bit. Also i think the U.K has the record for the most recent legitimate bayonet charge and it was in that war funnily enough. (they fixed the armour things at various points, i forget when/which gen of osprey it was)

The dynamics for russia is largely going to be mobile warfare, its more open ground than built up. and then the built up areas are going to be fortified, and backed up with armoured vehicles, aircraft etc and there is going to be a lack of concern about civilians, so less need to breech buildings**, or not just throw Fragmentation grenades into them. (that and if i recall, Russians buildings tend to be pretty resistant to grenades, so it would be more applciable than in some other places, at least the apartment blocks) The recent urban dealings have basically highlighted failings in training it for some countries, it doesnt need to be your focus* unless thats what you expect the war to be like, but you should also cover it as everywhere has some form of buildings. Hand to hand comabt is like the last thing in the scale of likelhoods, even in urban fighting, more like to get shot, or have your building be missiled, or have a tank fire into it etc. and then your more liekly to bayonet them stab them or beat them with your rifle than go bare handed.

Oh on that, part of the point of miltiary combatives is and if its true, the U.K found that in WW1 soldiers with some combat sport education did better on average in hand to hand fighting/trench attacking than ones that didnt, so thats the cover there. Give everyone a minor education in it, increase the odds of them wining in close combat. (granted i dont think it can be ********, like if you teach them to throw chi balls they are probbly going to die when somone shoots them) You can not generalise them though, they can be fully fleshed out complex systems, or just exist to increase aggression and give you a gloss over on how to fight. I recall reading a US army one, and the bulk of the manual was rifle retention, then retention of pistol, then knife/other weapon like that then the last part and least covered was bare hands.

*Unless your a specilist for urban warfare, but then you are probbly lacking in other military skills due to it.
** Breeching in the more police sense than the military one. In that you dont use a missile launcher to blow a hole in the side of the building then throw grenades into it and clear it. Or dont call a plane to drop a boomb on it etc.

Given the U.K's armour system for Afganistan was heavy(to the point of burdensome), and you also couldnt shoulder your rifle right while prone, its probbly a good thing it wasnt a convetional military and standards varied quite a bit. Also i think the U.K has the record for the most recent legitimate bayonet charge and it was in that war funnily enough. (they fixed the armour things at various points, i forget when/which gen of osprey it was)

The dynamics for russia is largely going to be mobile warfare, its more open ground than built up. and then the built up areas are going to be fortified, and backed up with armoured vehicles, aircraft etc and there is going to be a lack of concern about civilians, so less need to breech buildings**, or not just throw Fragmentation grenades into them. (that and if i recall, Russians buildings tend to be pretty resistant to grenades, so it would be more applciable than in some other places, at least the apartment blocks) The recent urban dealings have basically highlighted failings in training it for some countries, it doesnt need to be your focus* unless thats what you expect the war to be like, but you should also cover it as everywhere has some form of buildings. Hand to hand comabt is like the last thing in the scale of likelhoods, even in urban fighting, more like to get shot, or have your building be missiled, or have a tank fire into it etc. and then your more liekly to bayonet them stab them or beat them with your rifle than go bare handed.

Oh on that, part of the point of miltiary combatives is and if its true, the U.K found that in WW1 soldiers with some combat sport education did better on average in hand to hand fighting/trench attacking than ones that didnt, so thats the cover there. Give everyone a minor education in it, increase the odds of them wining in close combat. (granted i dont think it can be ********, like if you teach them to throw chi balls they are probbly going to die when somone shoots them) You can not generalise them though, they can be fully fleshed out complex systems, or just exist to increase aggression and give you a gloss over on how to fight. I recall reading a US army one, and the bulk of the manual was rifle retention, then retention of pistol, then knife/other weapon like that then the last part and least covered was bare hands.

*Unless your a specilist for urban warfare, but then you are probbly lacking in other military skills due to it.
** Breeching in the more police sense than the military one. In that you dont use a missile launcher to blow a hole in the side of the building then throw grenades into it and clear it. Or dont call a plane to drop a boomb on it etc.

British military have been using Virtus body armour since 2015.

We've also been instructing troops in urban warfare since Op. Banner began in 1969. There is no lack in other military skills because of that either, infantry training here is longer than most countries troops and is also on going.

oh and yes they call the RAF in to bomb buildings why wouldn't they? If you want people out alive you send in the SBS/SAS.

I assume you get your gen from written subject matter rather than military experience?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

British military have been using Virtus body armour since 2015.

The bulk of the Afganistan war would have been using Osprey, as far as i recall the U.K was withdrawing from afgistan in 2014 so assets have been gradually reduced there so i dont know if i would count Virtus as seeing that war. Also the announcement of adoption of a new product does not mean the previous generation is magically replaced by it. it goes into a transitional stage where the old one is slowly phased out which can take quite a while and works on a priorties list. So Osprey would have still seen service several years after the offical adoption or Virtus. This is also another thing people overlook, the logistics behind replacing things.

We've also been instructing troops in urban warfare since Op. Banner began in 1969. There is no lack in other military skills because of that either, infantry training here is longer than most countries troops and is also on going.

Its been instructed since WW2, i dont recall a dip in teaching FIBUA since then. The troubles isnt really a test bed for FIBIA, its a mixture of counter insurgency as well.(Ulster is mainly rural) another string of FIBUA was learnt in the Iraq wars and i think thats the main kick the U.S got for their programes and source they use. (this is including the insurgency)


I dont recall stating there is a lack of military skills in general, only if you specilise in one area. due to the nature of specilsiation, it means you are a worse generalist. If you specilise in urban warfare in this example, the bulk of your training would be conducting yourself in it. thats probbly not the best skill and experience and simulation base for fighting in a desert. And just for basic time management, if you only have 30 weeks to train somone and you need to add a week of say FIBUA in there, you either need to add an extra week or drop a weeks training elsewhere.

oh and yes they call the RAF in to bomb buildings why wouldn't they? If you want people out alive you send in the SBS/SAS.

I assume you get your gen from written subject matter rather than military experience?

People overlook diffrent things in war due to their most recent experiences and overlook the usage of aircraft and just blowing up buildings and also specfically fortified ones. What you can and cant do is pending on the threatre and rules. (generally you wont blow something up if it has people in you dont want to kill, nor would you use fragmentation) The SAS/SBS does not have enough assets to do that everywhere+ their specilsit duties of basically search and destroy behind enemy lines.

Military experience is largely null here, i dont think i need to start the tangent for the amount of myths soldiers have started, the historic training issues, how it can take the miltiary a while to correct training errors etc and how soldiers generally arent the most relible of sources and should be taken witha grain of salt. this is also not to get into the way the miitary generally trains you and thats do as you are told. Irrespective if there is better things to do or not. This is not to mention it would be a appeal to authorty and only be relivent to start that fallacious path. The claimed authroty is not correct just because they claim they are a authroty and cite that as the reason they are correct.

And its secondarily null, due to as far as i recall you not having any either.

 

[Tez3]

The bulk of the Afganistan war would have been using Osprey, as far as i recall the U.K was withdrawing from afgistan in 2014 so assets have been gradually reduced there so i dont know if i would count Virtus as seeing that war. Also the announcement of adoption of a new product does not mean the previous generation is magically replaced by it. it goes into a transitional stage where the old one is slowly phased out which can take quite a while and works on a priorties list. So Osprey would have still seen service several years after the offical adoption or Virtus. This is also another thing people overlook, the logistics behind replacing things.

Its been instructed since WW2, i dont recall a dip in teaching FIBUA since then. The troubles isnt really a test bed for FIBIA, its a mixture of counter insurgency as well.(Ulster is mainly rural) another string of FIBUA was learnt in the Iraq wars and i think thats the main kick the U.S got for their programes and source they use. (this is including the insurgency)


I dont recall stating there is a lack of military skills in general, only if you specilise in one area. due to the nature of specilsiation, it means you are a worse generalist. If you specilise in urban warfare in this example, the bulk of your training would be conducting yourself in it. thats probbly not the best skill and experience and simulation base for fighting in a desert. And just for basic time management, if you only have 30 weeks to train somone and you need to add a week of say FIBUA in there, you either need to add an extra week or drop a weeks training elsewhere.

People overlook diffrent things in war due to their most recent experiences and overlook the usage of aircraft and just blowing up buildings and also specfically fortified ones. What you can and cant do is pending on the threatre and rules. (generally you wont blow something up if it has people in you dont want to kill, nor would you use fragmentation) The SAS/SBS does not have enough assets to do that everywhere+ their specilsit duties of basically search and destroy behind enemy lines.

Military experience is largely null here, i dont think i need to start the tangent for the amount of myths soldiers have started, the historic training issues, how it can take the miltiary a while to correct training errors etc and how soldiers generally arent the most relible of sources and should be taken witha grain of salt. this is also not to get into the way the miitary generally trains you and thats do as you are told. Irrespective if there is better things to do or not. This is not to mention it would be a appeal to authorty and only be relivent to start that fallacious path. The claimed authroty is not correct just because they claim they are a authroty and cite that as the reason they are correct.

And its secondarily null, due to as far as i recall you not having any either.

Then you recall wrongly. I am a veteran. I was an RAF Intel officer. I train soldiers in martial arts in a military martial arts club. After I left the military I worked in a civilian uniformed role with the MoD which involved deployments in Bosnia and Afghanistan, the latter training their police officers. My other half is also a veteran, five Op Banner tours, deployments in the Middle East. ( in the 70s look them up) and the Falklands war.
I've worked with the people you read about, my first fiance was SBS, killed in Northern Ireland. An army officer I worked with there was murdered after being tortured, his body has never been found.
I have worked until recently in among other places the Infantry Training Centre, and most of the barracks here in the largest garrison in Europe. If I want to know or check something I have SNCOs and officers of various regiments and corps to ask. Everything from the Dental Corps, the Guards, Paras, REME, Tankies, RAMC, intelligence Corps, RMP and Gurkhas, to the RAPTC.

You clearly have dim view of the UK military and have not understood the points I made going by your garbled reply.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Then you recall wrongly. I am a veteran. I was an RAF Intel officer. I train soldiers in martial arts in a military martial arts club. After I left the military I worked in a civilian uniformed role with the MoD which involved deployments in Bosnia and Afghanistan, the latter training their police officers. My other half is also a veteran, five Op Banner tours, deployments in the Middle East. ( in the 70s look them up) and the Falklands war.
I've worked with the people you read about, my first fiance was SBS, killed in Northern Ireland. An army officer I worked with there was murdered after being tortured, his body has never been found.
I have worked until recently in among other places the Infantry Training Centre, and most of the barracks here in the largest garrison in Europe. If I want to know or check something I have SNCOs and officers of various regiments and corps to ask. Everything from the Dental Corps, the Guards, Paras, REME, Tankies, RAMC, intelligence Corps, RMP and Gurkhas, to the RAPTC.

You clearly have dim view of the UK military and have not understood the points I made going by your garbled reply.

This is not to mention it would be a appeal to authorty and only be relivent to start that fallacious path. The claimed authroty is not correct just because they claim they are a authroty and cite that as the reason they are correct.

I frankly dont care.

 

[Tez3]

I frankly dont care.

That is patently obvious. Some people care about the truth, others just like to bump their gums and waffle to make themselves sound knowledgeable.