Rohai?

[exile]

Rob Redmond has an interesting take on Funakoshi's relationship to the content of Shotokan, and its current practice, here...

 

[dancingalone]

Rob Redmond has an interesting take on Funakoshi's relationship to the content of Shotokan, and its current practice, here...

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read although I think Rob Redmund's scepticism of bunkai is too much shaped by his background as a shotokan karateka. I bet if he studied shorin-ryu, he'd be more favorably inclined towards it, since all the shorin-ryu people I've met were heavily interested in bunkai study and it's an understood as a key part of the curriculum.

That said, I do agree that much bunkai today is reverse-engineered. It happens when one starts cross-training with a grappling art and begin to see the possibilities within the traditional kata. However this does not preclude the possibility of bunkai really being handed down from teacher to student over the decades. I suppose if you're an Okinawan guy in Okinawa your chances of being exposed to the applications are greater than if you're Joe Schmo learning in Anytown, USA. Hate to be a snob, but sometimes your lineage really does matter.

 

[TimoS]

Yes, now I can see it. But why did Funakoshi take out the crane stances? and the takedown?

You know, it wasn't necessarily Funakoshi who did the changes. As I've understood it, a lot of the changes attributed to Funakoshi were in fact instituted later by his students. I can ask my sources about what they think is the reason for the original question, as I'm not that well versed in Shotokan history

 

[Ray B]

Nishiyama is notorious for changing kata. If you look at him, Oshima
and Kanazawa, you will see big differences.

 

[HankinSalem]

I think that nobody will ever know the truth about kata.

This is especially true if you get to know people like John Sells who will show you old versions of kata that really add to the confusion.

Case in point: John taught my school a kata name "Koryu Jion" last March when he was up here in the Northwest visiting.

This kata has pretty much all the moves of modern Jion AND Matsumura Rohai in it, intertwined. Fairly obviously, someone, somehwhere and when took this kata and extracted one set of moves to make Rohai and another set of moves to make modern Jion.

Who, when? Who knows.

John has also taught a kata name Tomoyori Sanchin that was used by the only guy given a shihan license by BOTH Mabuni Kenwa and Miyagi Chojun. This kata has Sanchin, Tensho and most of Seisan in it and comes from the late 1920s, early 1930s, before these kata were formalized.

 

[TimoS]

This kata has pretty much all the moves of modern Jion AND Matsumura Rohai in it, intertwined. Fairly obviously, someone, somehwhere and when took this kata and extracted one set of moves to make Rohai and another set of moves to make modern Jion.

Or someone put those two separate kata together and called it Koryu Jion. I'm not saying that that is what happened, what I'm saying that it could've also happened for all we know. Just as an example, I was told of one guy who apparently knew Channan, but in fact it was just all five Pinan kata done one after another.

 

[cstanley]

I've read Sells' book and, though it is very helpful in many ways, I believe he is reaching a bit in places.