drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I am pretty sure if you wanted to reference another promotion nobody will jump down you throat.
ONE FC Reign of Champions: Christian Holley keen to continue his unbeaten record in Dubai
Rise of Karate in MMA
- Thread starter Monkey Turned Wolf
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I am pretty sure if you wanted to reference another promotion nobody will jump down you throat.
ONE FC Reign of Champions: Christian Holley keen to continue his unbeaten record in Dubai
I could but there'd be a huge long list of promotions from all around the world and that's just the ones I know.
punisher73
Senior Master
It seems that this discussion rolls around every few months. Most noticeably every time a "karateka" does well in the UFC. Saw lots of these articles when Lyoto Machida was on the rise.
Anyways, as Mr. Mattocks pointed out, the fighters are always on the look out for "new things" that haven't been tried in the ring that will give them a slight edge. Once people see it, then they also will train it and then learn to counter it, etc. From Ruas first showcasing the Muay Thai roundhouse kick, to Sakuraba first showing "hammerfists" to strike a grounded opponent to Machido do the double kick set up out of Chinto Kata. MMA has always been evolving and it has ALWAYS evolved with "traditional" arts right there. Why? Because MMA is made up of TMA's. Everything there is found in a traditional martial art. There is more refinement of some of those arts and their combat sports versions, but the techniques are still there in the parent arts of those sports.
The UFC style of MMA is a specific rule set, and the techniques that you USUALLY see are the ones that do best in that rule set and environment. For example, look at the difference between the UFC and Pride (when it was still around). The UFC guys who went over there usually lost due to the rules and environment and when the Pride guys came over to the UFC they usually lost for the same reasons.
"MMA" is a sport, not a style. There is no clear system to pass on and it varies from person to person to person. Could a person define THEIR version of MMA and turn it into a style with a set curriculum and progression of skills? Sure, they could. But, that would be the exception rather than the norm.
Anyways, as Mr. Mattocks pointed out, the fighters are always on the look out for "new things" that haven't been tried in the ring that will give them a slight edge. Once people see it, then they also will train it and then learn to counter it, etc. From Ruas first showcasing the Muay Thai roundhouse kick, to Sakuraba first showing "hammerfists" to strike a grounded opponent to Machido do the double kick set up out of Chinto Kata. MMA has always been evolving and it has ALWAYS evolved with "traditional" arts right there. Why? Because MMA is made up of TMA's. Everything there is found in a traditional martial art. There is more refinement of some of those arts and their combat sports versions, but the techniques are still there in the parent arts of those sports.
The UFC style of MMA is a specific rule set, and the techniques that you USUALLY see are the ones that do best in that rule set and environment. For example, look at the difference between the UFC and Pride (when it was still around). The UFC guys who went over there usually lost due to the rules and environment and when the Pride guys came over to the UFC they usually lost for the same reasons.
"MMA" is a sport, not a style. There is no clear system to pass on and it varies from person to person to person. Could a person define THEIR version of MMA and turn it into a style with a set curriculum and progression of skills? Sure, they could. But, that would be the exception rather than the norm.
I think it's the fluidity of MMA that many people like and enjoy, it's been described as physical chess before now and that has it's attractions for many.
When people say they can ( and can't) see various styles in MMA it's because MMA is what it says on the tin ( and I've said this before, sometimes I think I'm a stuck record) you don't do one style for kicks, another for punches and yet another for groundwork, it's all mixed in, flowing from one technique to another. Good MMA fighters are a couple of moves ahead in their head of the move they are actually doing. Karate isn't on the rise anymore than any other style, it's just someone has noticed someone doing techniques in a karate manner, as had been said a couple of times now, it happens every time a fighter is seen as a karateka, Georges Saint Pierre is another fighter who comes to mind along with those already mentioned.
As I said before, we can discuss MMA and we can discuss the UFC, one is a style/sports rules/whatever you like to call it and the other is a sports promotion business.
When people say they can ( and can't) see various styles in MMA it's because MMA is what it says on the tin ( and I've said this before, sometimes I think I'm a stuck record) you don't do one style for kicks, another for punches and yet another for groundwork, it's all mixed in, flowing from one technique to another. Good MMA fighters are a couple of moves ahead in their head of the move they are actually doing. Karate isn't on the rise anymore than any other style, it's just someone has noticed someone doing techniques in a karate manner, as had been said a couple of times now, it happens every time a fighter is seen as a karateka, Georges Saint Pierre is another fighter who comes to mind along with those already mentioned.
As I said before, we can discuss MMA and we can discuss the UFC, one is a style/sports rules/whatever you like to call it and the other is a sports promotion business.
I don't think there's a rise of Karate in MMA. MMA in America has gone through several phases.
First phase was style vs. style. Then the second phase was people who came into "mma gyms" learning the generic style of MMA IE only know how to do round kicks in a pseudo-thai style, learn wrestling takedowns, doing boxing combinations etc. but overall no one coming from one pure background but are just athletic by nature. Now the third phase could be shaping up now in that people come in with a base art like Karate or TKD for example (Machida/Thompson/Pettis) and then round out the edges with sprinklings of other arts.
First phase was style vs. style. Then the second phase was people who came into "mma gyms" learning the generic style of MMA IE only know how to do round kicks in a pseudo-thai style, learn wrestling takedowns, doing boxing combinations etc. but overall no one coming from one pure background but are just athletic by nature. Now the third phase could be shaping up now in that people come in with a base art like Karate or TKD for example (Machida/Thompson/Pettis) and then round out the edges with sprinklings of other arts.
In the UK and Europe I think we are all the other way around. We didn't have any MMA gyms to start with so it was TMA people who had a base style already who were going into MMA, they would learn another style to compliment their own ie Judo people would learn a stand up style and vice versa. We didn't have BJJ either to start with so mostly the ground style was Judo with some JJJ, we've had MT here for a long time so that with karate and TKD were the stand up styles of choice. Boxing people didn't get involved much in the beginning as MMA wasn't thought much of.
The early UFC bouts, the style v style ones weren't watched much here, it wasn't on the television and made little impression here. Pride however the Japanese promotion was widely available on video. MMA as such came to the UK mostly because of one man Lee Hasdell who had the first MMA bouts here in 1995. He'd started training in 'mixed' martial arts in Japan in 1992 and was spreading the word. It wasn't until the inclusion of Ian Freeman a British fighter in the UFC in 2000 that the UK started picking up ( albeit slowly and mostly in the North East of England where Ian is from) about the UFC, Ian is boxing and Goshin jiu-jitsu (Japanese), he'd mostly fought in Vale Tudo and Sambo comps in Russia before that.
We've always had people with a base style who have invested in training in other styles in order to compete successfully, it's only now that we've had people coming into MMA specific gyms and learning joined up MMA, without having a base style. Way back when it all started we did predict this would happen, that we'd see youngsters bypassing the traditional styles for MMA itself, though interestingly the best gyms do train stand up, groundwork and fitness in separate classes alongside a general 'sparring' session.
Yeah for my "phase two" comment I was thinking of the "MMA Craze explosion" we experienced here in the States around 2003-2005. Where MMA became popular over night and everyone wanted to do something that looked like it. So you had athletes from other sports coming in with no base. Like say a Matt Mitrione type character who never did a combat sport or martial art before.
I think we are still waiting for that phrase. MMA is still very much a minority sport here, in fact martial arts are quite a minority thing too. We don't really have big chains of schools or the idea of after school clubs etc. It's not very commercial here. MMA here has no governing body either so while most promotions tend to use the UFC model of rules you have negotiations going on between coaches for changes in rules for their fighters. We have fairly small promotions here so we tend to all know each other lol. We've had the UFC here but the ticket prices are hugely expensive ( about Ā£150 for a decent seat for nxt UFC in London plus we'd have to pay for travel and accomodation) whereas local shows aren't and will feature local fighters, always good for ticket sales. There'll be plenty of fans going to watch the UFC in London but that doesn't translate into people going to train MMA. It's very much a spectator sport still here.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
That's random.
Dinkydoo
Purple Belt
That has to be one of the worst pieces of writing masquerading as journalism I've ever read. I thought our tabloids in the UK were bad! (They are)
I stopped reading about half way and still had absolutely no idea what the purpose of the article was, some 'highlights':
UFC 193 nearly had a record breaking attendance for the Etihad stadium....but it didn't, a Jehova's Witness convention had around 20,000 more people in attendance.
Some of the spectators looked quite rough and had tattoos, but there were no arrests.
A pro boxer righty states that the brutal combat sport of mma should not be banned, but admits that it is sometimes too violent.
This is a parody, right?
I stopped reading about half way and still had absolutely no idea what the purpose of the article was, some 'highlights':
UFC 193 nearly had a record breaking attendance for the Etihad stadium....but it didn't, a Jehova's Witness convention had around 20,000 more people in attendance.
Some of the spectators looked quite rough and had tattoos, but there were no arrests.
A pro boxer righty states that the brutal combat sport of mma should not be banned, but admits that it is sometimes too violent.
This is a parody, right?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not really. We were discussing mma as a minority sport.
I think Tez3 was referring to England. Yes, it's quite popular here in the US now.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
That one was Australia.
Yes, we know and I was referring to the UK. I wouldn't presume to speak for another country.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Which is why I put it in its own box rather than quoting anybody.
It was a stand alone comment.
Still random and 'we' weren't discussing minority sports, I mentioned it in my post as a comment about MMA in the UK. No one else was mentioning it.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Stop twisting my words. If you are trying to provoke arguments go instead to the Bullshido site.
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