Respect and Rank: Your Views

[still learning]

Hello, We are all equal and respect should be giving to everyone. No matter the age or rank or statis.

To be humble , honesty, truthful, show kindness always should be a part of us.

"Yes" there are people out there that most likely do not deserved any of this...but it is NOT our fault. We still can be respectfully. "It doesn't mean we have to like you."

Our highest people should set the examples as role models. Every person deserves to be respected especially in martial arts.

Selfish people think they deseved respect...but usually are the ones who do not give other self-respect. Don't be selfish!

Aloha

 

[Doc_Jude]

Never demand respect. Respect comes from so many sources... skill is only one of them. Respect in it's most desirable form is engendered by your mere presence. The people in martial arts that I respect the most are very humble even in the face of their tremendous ability and experience. If you demand more respect than you deserve, that's pure ego, & such respect is most undeserved. The Internet can really magnify such situations.

I've met many folks that demand respect, in martial arts, the military, & various work environments. In these situations, I find that if I can bring myself to respect their "rank", if not the person, I can usually get along okay.

Respect in martial arts is a difficult subject. In my opinion, many folks get involved in martial arts seeking respect. The longer they spend in martial arts, the more respect such people think they deserve. The problem is that their skill may or may not be congruent with their time in the arts, for lack of actual training time, personal aptitude, a crap art, or whatever reason. I'm sure that many of us have met such folks. I always try to remember something my ol' pappy once told me:"There's a difference between 10 years of experience, & one year TEN TIMES." Sometimes such folks need to be taken down a notch, simple as that, in order for them to learn. They won't listen to reason or logic, & simply placate their superiors with false humility. It may take a beating from a superior, or a lesser rank, or someone from another art. Perhaps it won't help. One can never tell.

A difficult subject, but worth talking about, IMO. Anyone interested should read a book by a Tibetan Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism". Even though the book is more about ego and spiritual achievement, I find that the practices Trungpa discusses can apply to many fields of study.

 

[Flying Crane]

Unfortunately, I have studied and tested under people like this, and it's demoralizing. I will say that while I showed them respect outwardly, I actually felt something closer to contempt inwardly. So, showing respect and having respect are not always the same in my experience.

slam dunk!

 

[Flying Crane]

And then there are others, a few who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure you and I have crossed paths with them, that know more, but make you feel like an *** or make you feel like what you know isn't worth anything.

Mike

yeah, I have run into that as well. I just sort of "smile and nod" and then go on my way. They may be very good and very knowledgeable and very skilled, but when arrogance gets in the way I simply have no interest in learning from them, even if they are actually the best. I don't care. I simply don't have room for those people in my life.

 

[exile]

I think there's an important distinction that has to be made between respect and deference. Often, when people observe that so-and-so insists on, demands, requires respect from others, it would be more accurate to say that what so-and-so is demanding is not respect but deference, some kind of submission ritual of the sort that ethologists have described for many species of social animal. The evolutionary payoff of these public gestures of subservience is that there's much less intra-species damage than there might otherwise be (which would often result in the premature death of younger animals who, if allowed to survive, will one day emerge as the alpha members of their own group). But what happens is that the prerogative of demanding deference in human society becomes one of the perks that go with membership in hierarchical organizations and institutions—which, as far as I can see, are in the vast majority in both ancient and modern communities. Very often, it's struck me, the people who are aggressively demanding `respect' from you aren't really interested in whether you respect them, because at root what they're looking for—by `right'—is a public confirmation that they have the upper hand, rather than your good opinion of them, esteem for them, or however we generally think of respect. Someone famous (or at least well-known) once said something like, `They don't have to like me, as long as they fear me' and that's very close, I think, to the animating motive of a certain kind of person that Mike was talking about in the OP.

So you're going to find a fair number of people like that in the MAs—just as you will in the military, in academe, in the business world, the legal and medical professions, and many, many other places. The pathetic thing about it all, of course, is that what others will remember, with appropriate contempt, about such people is their overinflated sense of self-importance, and little else. Kind of sad, in a way...

 

[Sukerkin]

A good way of highlighting the core of what we were talking about, Ex :tup:. I can't put words in others mouths (posts?) of course but that was really what I was on about in my earlier post when I talked about rank requiring respect - I just didn't express it very well.

"Deference" is a far better word in this context than multi-meaning-loaded "respect".

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I've worked for/with people in the work place that are just like exile is decribing here. Very counterproductive if you ask me.

_Don Flatt

 

[MJS]

No, I do not feel respect is a two way street, because you don't really have to give it to get it (although that would be nice), and even if you do give it, that does not mean the person will give it back. As I have said in other posts on this subject, I don't believe you "give" or "get" respect. Those are slang terms that distort the true nature of what respect is. In my interpretation, respect is a feeling of worth you have within yourself for something that you believe is of value. You can display the feeling that you have by "showing" respect to others, or telling them you respect them, but it is yours, and yours alone to feel or not feel at your discretion.

For clarification, I'll use the command/demand example Drac made in post #2. Is this what you're referring to above?

Quite the post below, so I'll address each part seperate.

I agree, but will take it in a different direction. I will tell a student that I have already learned what you are seeking. I don't have to be here teaching. I share what I know with others for their benefit. I have already put in the hard work, and proven myself to my instructor so don't come here demanding that I prove myself to you. First, we must get our roles straight. I am the teacher, and you are the student. My job is to teach, and your job is to learn. Don't presume to correct my teaching methods because of some book you read, or some movie you've seen a dozen times, or some other Martial Art school you attended for 2 1/2 years. Empty your cup, and open your mind. Later, you can reject everything I have taught you, if you wish.

I agree with you for the most part. However, I don't feel that the instructor should give the impression that they're the greatest thing to have ever walked the earth, and the students that stand before them amount to nothing. I have always welcomed questions from my students and my instructors welcome them from me. Yes, there is a time and place for questions, and the extra questions can always be asked afterwards, but if I'm not sure of how something is going to work, you can bet I'm going to ask. If the inst. gets upset because I ask a question, to me, thats not a very good inst.

I'm going to give an analogy here, because I feel this is important to this topic of "automatic respect" that gets brought up so often. When I was in the Army, one of the obstacle courses we were required to accomplish involved a tall tower of several platforms, with each platform getting wider, and more difficult the higher you go (see photo attachment below). Each platoon of about a dozen soldiers would make their way from the ground to the top, but it was not every man for himself. We would boost two or three up, then each would turn around, get down on their knees or lay on their stomachs, reach down and help pull up the rest of the squad one-by-one. No one got to the top alone, but those who were above you took the time to help you, and several others up.

If you compare this to the Martial Art ranking hierarchy, imagine a tower with 18 platforms. If I see there are Grandmasters up at the distant top, and I climb to reach their level, it will take me some time, and a lot of work. As I go, I make sure that I stop and help a few people up to my platform before moving on. As everyone struggles to reach the top, some might begin to step on the heads, and fingers of others, pushing them back down to make their own way up. I choose not to do that.

Ok, I'm with you so far.

I work my way up nine platforms, and realize there are nine more difficult levels to go. One or two of the Grandmasters at the top notice my respect for others, and climb down to help me up a few levels. These Grandmasters have been up and down the tower many times in their lifetime, and can scale the tower in seconds all by themselves. Once they get me beyond the throng, to the 14th platform, I see four more difficult levels above me, but I also notice the many people beneath me struggling to climb up, so I help them. After some time at this level, these Grandmasters who have helped so much tell me to get my butt back down there to the 1st level and start helping even more people up - - so I bow, say "yes, sir!" and go do it.

Still with you.

After several trips up and down, I begin to feel comfortable with my skills at traversing the levels and helping others up. It's been a hard life, but I'm proud of it, and it was worth every scrape and cut, and all the blood, sweat and tears. Now, I see other people having been air-lifted to the very top of other towers near-by, and standing up there as though they are the greatest grandmasters. I see others standing on my tower who I watched step on people and push people out of their way to get to the top. I just continue to help others and am grateful when the Grandmasters at the top help me up one more level.

Ok.

Then, one day, I'm back near the bottom to help some new beginners get started. One of them questions my methods and begins to argue with me. I politely tell him to have patience, trust me, and I will help him get to the next level. Along the way, I will help him to become stronger, so that he can help others. Again, he challenges my knowledge of how to traverse up the tower, and says to me, "don't expect me to respect you just because you are at a higher level. YOU have to EARN my respect first."

"I'm sorry. I don't have to earn anything from you, sir!" YOU need to learn to respect those who are at a higher level, NOT because they are at a higher level, but how they got there, and what they already did in their life-time to EARN that rank and position. I was not air-lifted to get here, and I did not step on others to put me above them, but you were not here during the decades that these things took place.

Yes, those are the people that ask those questions that take away from the main lesson, and the questions that need to be asked afterwards. They're looking for the 'what if' part of the technique, rather than trying to grasp the beginning first. Sometimes, those people are the ones that an example needs to be made of. I'm not talking about putting them in the hospital, but they're the type that need to see and feel to believe.

Think about this. It is difficult to teach people about proper table manners and etiquette, unless you critique them, in which case, some people will be offended and consider you to be the rude one. It is difficult to get a room full of people to be quiet, without making some noise yourself. Sitting quietly sets a good example, but does not always bring about the desired results in a timely manner. Sometimes you have to say, "Shhhhhh! Please be quiet." You had to make some noise in order to bring about silence.

As a Martial Art instructor, I teach respect to many people who don't understand it. Respecting them, or leading by example and respecting my seniors is a good start, but often times, I find it necessary and appropriate to insist on displays of respect, whether they feel respect yet or not. I am teaching them the concept of respect, and how to show it to others - - not that I am demanding it for myself, but I am the teacher in the room upon whom they practice, and learn to respect. Not all students grasp the concept from the start, but all my students are expected to conduct themselves in the same manner, and show the same proper respect until they learn what it means.

I think exile summed it up very well with his post. When I'd teach a beginners class, of course, I had a higher rank and more time in than they. However, I never let the "Black Belt Syndrome" affect me. I never walked around making them feel less because they were a white belt with 2 weeks, while I had years. I treated them like a human. When you exhibit that aura of a bad ***, people are going to tend to be intimidated by you. If you're humble and personable, people are going to be less intimidated. Imgaine trying to teach anyone with a badass attitude like that. They'll be afraid to breath wrong, out of fear they'll be 'punished.'

 

[Sukerkin]

A very important point arises from MJS's final words there.

Whilst respect or deference is due to someone with legitimate 'rank', if someone is putting themselves forward as a teacher then being the 'badass' is entirely counterproductive.

It's not an easy tightrope to walk (which is why high rank is not an automatic guarantor of ability to instruct) but a person needs to be able to have enough repsect from the student body so that they safely do as they are told but not be so intimidating as to impede thoughtful questions.

I've barely made a single step on the path of instructing but a lesson I learned almost immediately was that questions from the students are very helpful in determining where you need to concentrate first.

If they daren't ask because they're made to feel that it's disrespectful and they're questioning the knowledge (aka skilz ) of the teacher then it makes learning that much more difficult. Lord knows it's embarassing enough asking a question 'in the ranks' as it is ('cos we all assume that everyone 'Gets it' except us ). Helping students get over that hurdle is important - I'm a couple of paces down the road from absolute beginner now, with many questions asked, and I still have occaision to put my blushes to one side and open my mouth with "Sensei? Why ... ?".

EDIT: One final word on this related side-issue but something I've found that I've got to step on before it gets to be a habit is 'chiming in' with my thoughts when Sensei is explaining something to someone. I mean to be helpful and put an alternate skew on things (because phrasing something a different way can be all someone needs sometimes) but doing that is in and of itself disrespectful to my teacher. It's a sign of Sensei's maturity of character that he's never once even alluded to it - I don't know where he gets the patience (maybe the decades he's been teaching have something to do with that ).

 

[Cruentus]

We in LE have to be able to read people VERY QUICKLY...In and around the MA circles I have met numerous people that command respect, their mere presence does it and they recieve it from me and others..I have also met the other types that demand respect, you know the bow-down-to-me-cause-I'm-so great types and treat everyone like crap, they get none...Yes, respect is a 2 way street...

I repped this one Drac because you made "Nice Points"

Really, I couldn't agree more...

C.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Respect is earned.

Respect is showed Yudansha because anyone who has studied our art for awhile has an idea of what it took to attain that rank.

Black belts dont lord rank over others because 1. It's wrong! 2. You remeber being a Kyu as well.

Our Sensei is the head of his own Ryu, been doing Jujutsu since 1963, but takes no tittle other than Sensei, wich all Dan ranks hold in our arts, off the mats he is Dave, just Dave.
I have known "Master" with a tenth of his skill and a 20th of his knowledge, dress up in custom uniforms, strut around with airs and demnd to be called Master or Grandmaster and even Great Grandmaster.
Then again who is more the fool? The fool who leads or the fool who follows?

 

[still learning]

Hello, Bottom line is? We...ourselves should always be respectfully, and show respect to everyone.

Even if they do not deserved it or give it back. Become humble, know yourself to be a good, kind, person.

Some people do not know better...many have had bad role models to follow.

It does not matter how the other person acts? What is important is how you ACT!



ACT 1: be respectfully.......ACT 2: be humble........ACT 3 : "No" pretend,be honest-NO ACT heh!

Aloha ( can I get a gobal award for my ACTS?)

 

[Sukerkin]

It does not matter how the other person acts? What is important is how you act!

Apologies to SL for the mucking about with emphasis in his post fragment I've quoted but I think that that one simple sentence flenses away all else and puts on the plate exactly what should be there.

 

[Steel Tiger]

A difficult subject, but worth talking about, IMO. Anyone interested should read a book by a Tibetan Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism". Even though the book is more about ego and spiritual achievement, I find that the practices Trungpa discusses can apply to many fields of study.

I think that this book would be very good at going to the heart of this matter because ego is a major factor in these sorts of circumstances.

I think there's an important distinction that has to be made between respect and deference. Often, when people observe that so-and-so insists on, demands, requires respect from others, it would be more accurate to say that what so-and-so is demanding is not respect but deference, some kind of submission ritual of the sort that ethologists have described for many species of social animal. The evolutionary payoff of these public gestures of subservience is that there's much less intra-species damage than there might otherwise be (which would often result in the premature death of younger animals who, if allowed to survive, will one day emerge as the alpha members of their own group).

The thing is with the development of complex language these deference displays have become secondary in human society. These patterns of behaviour are, and always have been, about power. One defers to someone who can do something to one. Its true it has little to do with respect.

I have found that those who are so demanding of deference are often very insecure, be it with themselves, their position, or their knowledge, and it burns them up to think that someone of a 'lesser' status might actually be better than them. Ego steps and takes over.

In the martial arts this situation is not helped by a predominance of Asian arts and their associated cultural baggage. By this I mean the strict rituals and requirements. With such things already in place it is easy for someone who has some insecurities to take advantage as it were.

Of course, this is not to say that everyone takes advantage of deference ceremonies and rituals. I would say that most use them simply because they are a tradition of their art and that is where the significance begins and ends.

 

[jks9199]

Others have addressed the difference between respect granted and respect earned or merited.

But it's also important to recognize the difference between showing true respect, and merely giving the trappings of respect. Let me start with an example from the military; anyone who is a commissioned officer, regardless of their distinctions or the quality of their service is saluted by those of inferior rank. The salute is a trapping of the rank; it's not any measure of the man or woman in particular. So is obedience to any lawful order from a superior officer. However, some leaders have men and women serving under them who consistently go out of their way to go above and beyond the minimum demands of their orders to excel; they do this out of personal respect for the leader.

It's similar in the martial arts. I offer anyone the basic forms of courtesy as I understand them due the rank they display; I'll bow to any black belt, for example. But... to a some, I bow based on the person, not the rank.

 

[Balrog]

Speaking for myself, I do my best to be respectful to everyone I come across, be it in the dojo or in real life, everyday activity. However, if someone can't return the favor, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to show someone anything extra. I've come across some martial artists, who are humble and respectful to everyone. They're not walking around with a cockyness or arrogance to them. I've also come across some who basically think that everyone should bow down and worship the ground they walk on. They tend to think that they're better than everyone else, if someone is a lesser rank, they feel that they don't have to show any respect to that lower rank.
...snip...
Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

It is absolutely a two-way street. The folks that you describe are the ones that I "bow to the belt". I respect their achievement in gaining high rank, but there isn't much else that I respect about them.

 

[meth18au]

I'm interested in hearing everyones views. Are you one that walks around like you're the king or queen of the world, or do you keep that humble tone about you? Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

When I was younger- yes I thought I was the unbeatable king of the world. In retrospect- I was naive and learning to find my place in this complicated world. I now consider myself humble- and endeavor to show respect to all that I come across. That is until they do something to make me act otherwise.

I would say it is definitely a 2 way street. People who want it, won't get it from me. People who give it, will get it.