Respect and Rank: Your Views

[MJS]

Humble, Respectful....those are just a few of the words that people who train in the arts, use to describe one of the goals of training. We see people in the arts who exhibit these qualities, and we see some that often give the impression that everyone, no matter who you are, demands that they get this respect. IMO, that doesn't sound like they're being too humble.

Speaking for myself, I do my best to be respectful to everyone I come across, be it in the dojo or in real life, everyday activity. However, if someone can't return the favor, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to show someone anything extra. I've come across some martial artists, who are humble and respectful to everyone. They're not walking around with a cockyness or arrogance to them. I've also come across some who basically think that everyone should bow down and worship the ground they walk on. They tend to think that they're better than everyone else, if someone is a lesser rank, they feel that they don't have to show any respect to that lower rank. Its people like that, that regardless of rank, status, or whatever else, that I don't care for. If you can't be polite, why should I go out of my way? Sorry, but I call it like I see it, and if that means showing a little disrespect back, perhaps the other person should step back a minute, and view their actions a bit closer.

I'm interested in hearing everyones views. Are you one that walks around like you're the king or queen of the world, or do you keep that humble tone about you? Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

Mike

 

[Drac]

We in LE have to be able to read people VERY QUICKLY...In and around the MA circles I have met numerous people that command respect, their mere presence does it and they recieve it from me and others..I have also met the other types that demand respect, you know the bow-down-to-me-cause-I'm-so great types and treat everyone like crap, they get none...Yes, respect is a 2 way street...

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, but I call it like I see it, and if that means showing a little disrespect back, perhaps the other person should step back a minute, and view their actions a bit closer.

Mike

I wasn't being mean, I was just being honest...

I know what ya mean, sometimes I just want to hand out bottles of Arrogant Bastard Ale, and a kick in the jewels.

really, i prefer to go unnoticed, and I don't like to attract attention to my training. My family and close friends and coworkers know I train, but it's not something I advertise, and I don't mention it to anybody I haven't known for a while. I prefer to slip under the radar if I can help it.

When some opinionated guy starts shooting off his mouth, I usually just shut up and hear what he has to say or walk away. Don't really feel like arguing about it, and who knows, maybe he's right, or maybe he knows more than me? I have this sneaking suspicion that for all I know, I'm not really all that good at it and I don't like to lay it out on the table for strangers. I'll hold my opinions to myself (except here in the forums, of course

). So I just keep training and don't tell others what to do.

 

[thardey]

I believe that everybody deserves some measure of respect right off the bat. But respect is like a bank account, and many people make withdrawals right away, and I lose respect for them.

I've been around some very powerful people, and I've been around some who never have enough power. The ones who are truly powerful (be it in rank, respect, money, knowledge, IQ, whatever), do not go out of their way to demand recognition of their power.

I think it was Margaret Thatcher who said "Being powerful is like being a lady -- if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."

Truly powerful people, in general, don't worry about their power.

The ones who can't get enough power, however, feel the need to insist that respect be shown to them. It's their way of temporarily fixing their own insecurities, is to demand praise. Often, once these type of people rise to a higher rank, they start to attack anything that is not what they are doing. Everybody they come in contact with is respected only within the arena that said jackass has mastered. Whether it is MA in general, the specific style, or a specific instructor, they find ways to reduce the number of peers around them, so that they can think of themselves as "more elite."

As far as rank in general, at my school (and in one other notable situation) rank was used properly, IMHO. Those who had higher ranks wore them to make it clear who could be relied upon to answer questions. As you started from a low rank, and moved up, your responsibility to help the lower ranks also increased. As an orange belt, you had a responsibility to help the white belts. In some cases, that help is better, because the frustration of starting out is still fresh in their minds. In other cases, both beginners would feel confident in asking help from a green belt, or Black belt. In my school, rank = responsibility. If you want someone to help you, then you better show them respect.

I've also hear that some systems require bowing to all Black Belts. We only bow to the teacher, and the flag, at the beginning and end of class. During class, the Black belts are referred to as "Mr. Hardey" or "Ms. Hardey". After class, though, it doesn't matter, as long as you are respectful. Technically, we should refer to all 5th degrees and above as "Master", but that almost never happens, and the Masters at my school don't really like it, anyways. They prefer Mr or Ms.

But everybody in the school is to be treated with respect, even the children. How can they learn what respect is like, unless they are shown it?

 

[Drac]

I But everybody in the school is to be treated with respect, even the children. How can they learn what respect is like, unless they are shown it?

Bravo...Well said...

 

[Steel Tiger]

This strikes me as an inherent conflict between our MA knowledge and the necessary evil of grades. Let me try to explain myself.

I think that a genuine understanding of our arts, whatever they might be, is what develops a more humble attitude. This has two aspects. The first is simply knowing how badly one can injure another person. I think for most reasonable people this sort of knowledge is both frightening and humbling. The second aspect is in the understanding that acquiring a depth of knowledge is a long and dedicated process.

A respect for the knowledge we have engenders respect. in other words, if we are sincere in our imparting of the knowledge we will be respected.

Then there are the ranking systems. I called them a necessary evil because that is what they are. As a teacher one needs to be able to break down a syllabus into components in order to teach it. Similarly a grading system allows teachers and students alike to know where individuals are in the scheme of the syllabus.

The problem stems from this. Knowledge appears to be attached to rank so, in the minds of some, rank equals knowledge. But just because you can do a set of techniques does not mean you know those techniques. I can use a number of mathematical formulae, but I don't know them the way a mathematician or physicist does.

When rank is perceived as knowledge people desire rank, believing that having it makes them greater and that will gain them respect. I think that this is further complicated by a lot of the enforced discipline we see in schools. I prefer my students to develop self-discipline with which they can then interact with people outside the school. All too often we have seen those individuals who have attained some high rank (usually not that high) and use it to bully others. This may work within the confines of their school but when they go into the wider world they are seen for what they are; sad and small spirited, with no real understanding of what they do.

Those we do respect in the MA world are those individuals who have developed a great understanding and respect for their art. This shows through in all they do. They do not need to demand respect and adulation, their actions speak for them. They teach their art because they truly desire to pass the knowledge on to others.

I've waffled and drifted about a bit, but I have thought about this a lot as it impacts the way I do things with regard to my own students.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Truly powerful people, in general, don't worry about their power.

Nicely put and very true.

 

[RED]

I try to give respect to everyone whether inside a dojang or out side. Martial artist or not. I know where you're coming from as far as higher ranks being ignorant. I met with the school at a parade when a high ranking (5th) BB literaly (put her hand on my back) pushed me out of her way. It was hard to show respect to this lady since then. A simple "excuse me" would have moved me. But when I bow to her I show respect for the Grandmaster's opinion of her and the rank he gave her. I find reasons to respect everyone I come across. Even if all I can find good about them is the fact that they beat 400,000 other sperm to the egg. I believe that if you give repect, others will repect you. For me showing respect isn't only for the other person it is just as much for my own beliefs, and humility.

 

[still learning]

Hello, We need to learn to treat others....how we would like to be treated.

There are alot people out there who grew up with the wrong role models and they themselves become UNKNOWNING a terrible person to be around with.

We cannot control or teach these people, unless they want to change.

Be yourself, Act humblely, be honest always, be kind, and be polite.

We cannot change the whole world....we can change our selves as well as those who respect us and follow our leads in becoming a true human being.

Aloha, (Smile)

 

[Sukerkin]

This is a highly complicated and convoluted issue as it involves that most central and obscure of human constructs ... the hierarchy.

Any hierarchy has people within it that are either talented (or not) and time-served (or not). In the martial arts, rank is an amalgamation of both but that mix can vary very widely indeed. Plus, there is the sad but true fact that some people rise to the level of their abilty and then either become somehow warped by that rank or reveal their deeper natures once they have it.

Then there is the associated issue of genuine respect in comparison to required respect. Those for whom you have genuine personal respect are not the issue here, so I shall speak no further of them.

However, because any martial art is a hierarchy, there will be people you meet whose rank requires your respect. It doesn't matter if you like them or not or if you think they deserve their rank or not.

Yes, respect is a two way street but if someone 'outranks' you it doesn't affect anything, within the confines of the dojo and training, if you think their attitude 'sucks'. Sadly, for the free-thinking liberals most of us are, within the structure of an MA school, that's sometimes what you have to put up with until you can remove yourself to somewhere where you fit better. By being objectionable in response or failing to observe the proper respect for their rank you are exhibiting traits that do not 'belong' in a martial arts context.

Of course, this is a very koryu mindset and I can appreciate that not many will share it. It boils down to a paraphrase of an oft repeated truism of the arts:

"You want the school; the school does not need you".

Thankfully, other than a kung fu brown sash with a very bad attitude many years ago, it's been my fortune, so far, never to have been presented with someone of rank whose personal traits did not support that rank. I pray that continues.

 

[Drac]

Truly powerful people, in general, don't worry about their power.

Nicely put and very true

Yes indeed...

 

[MJS]

We in LE have to be able to read people VERY QUICKLY...In and around the MA circles I have met numerous people that command respect, their mere presence does it and they recieve it from me and others..I have also met the other types that demand respect, you know the bow-down-to-me-cause-I'm-so great types and treat everyone like crap, they get none...Yes, respect is a 2 way street...

Exactly, and yes, theres a big difference between the two. Personally, I'm more fond of the ones that command rather than demand.

Mike

 

[Drac]

Exactly, and yes, theres a big difference between the two. Personally, I'm more fond of the ones that command rather than demand.

Mike

Same here...

 

[MJS]

I wasn't being mean, I was just being honest...

I know what ya mean, sometimes I just want to hand out bottles of Arrogant Bastard Ale, and a kick in the jewels.

LOL! Ditto!

really, i prefer to go unnoticed, and I don't like to attract attention to my training. My family and close friends and coworkers know I train, but it's not something I advertise, and I don't mention it to anybody I haven't known for a while. I prefer to slip under the radar if I can help it.

I'm the same way. I don't mind talking about it as long as its a sincere discussion, but when the stupidity comes out, thats when I lose interest.

When some opinionated guy starts shooting off his mouth, I usually just shut up and hear what he has to say or walk away. Don't really feel like arguing about it, and who knows, maybe he's right, or maybe he knows more than me? I have this sneaking suspicion that for all I know, I'm not really all that good at it and I don't like to lay it out on the table for strangers. I'll hold my opinions to myself (except here in the forums, of course

). So I just keep training and don't tell others what to do.

Well, thats the fine line. There are people who know more than me, yet they're still humble about it, don't down grade me, etc. And then there are others, a few who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure you and I have crossed paths with them, that know more, but make you feel like an *** or make you feel like what you know isn't worth anything.

Mike

 

[MJS]

However, because any martial art is a hierarchy, there will be people you meet whose rank requires your respect. It doesn't matter if you like them or not or if you think they deserve their rank or not.

True, but IMO, I'd have to say only to a certain point. The student has the option of training at a school, or if they encounter issues, they'd be free to leave. Personally speaking, if I was at a school, where 99% of the people there had that attitude, there is a good chance I'd find another place to train. Maybe I'm not following you fully here, so forgive me if thats the case.

Yes, respect is a two way street but if someone 'outranks' you it doesn't affect anything, within the confines of the dojo and training, if you think their attitude 'sucks'. Sadly, for the free-thinking liberals most of us are, within the structure of an MA school, that's sometimes what you have to put up with until you can remove yourself to somewhere where you fit better. By being objectionable in response or failing to observe the proper respect for their rank you are exhibiting traits that do not 'belong' in a martial arts context.

Sad but true. But like I said, its one thing to have high rank and be humble, and another to have it and be a jerk.

Of course, this is a very koryu mindset and I can appreciate that not many will share it. It boils down to a paraphrase of an oft repeated truism of the arts:

"You want the school; the school does not need you".

I think I may be split on this. For example...if I walk into a store, such as a Wal-Mart, which has stores all over the place, get poor service and state, "This place sucks! I'm never coming back here again!" Now, chances are, I probably will go back to WalMart, but even if I didn't, they're not going to close down because I never go back. I could tell 50 of my closest friends never to go and WalMart still isnt going to close down. Now, unless the martial arts school is part of a chain of schools, if they get a reputation of being a bad school, it may hurt enrollment.

Thankfully, other than a kung fu brown sash with a very bad attitude many years ago, it's been my fortune, so far, never to have been presented with someone of rank whose personal traits did not support that rank. I pray that continues.

Likewise, the majority of people I've met, didn't have those poor traits either. Sadly, both in real life and on a few forums, I've run into people who had that rank, but talking to them, they make you feel like a piece of dirt.

 

[Tames D]

My general rule is: Treat everyone with respect unless they show otherwise.

 

[kidswarrior]

When some opinionated guy starts shooting off his mouth, I usually just shut up and hear what he has to say or walk away. Don't really feel like arguing about it, and who knows, maybe he's right, or maybe he knows more than me? I have this sneaking suspicion that for all I know, I'm not really all that good at it and I don't like to lay it out on the table for strangers. I'll hold my opinions to myself (except here in the forums, of course

). So I just keep training and don't tell others what to do.

Yup.

I think that a genuine understanding of our arts, whatever they might be, is what develops a more humble attitude. This has two aspects. The first is simply knowing how badly one can injure another person. I think for most reasonable people this sort of knowledge is both frightening and humbling. The second aspect is in the understanding that acquiring a depth of knowledge is a long and dedicated process.

I see here the dual themes Mike included in the OP, respect and humility. I honestly can't see them as separate in the MA's. For example, if I want respect, I'd better have a large dose of humility about me. Similarly, if my students want my respect, or that of fellow students, they'd do well to do the same. And those who do have a good sense of humility about them (whether white belts or Grand Masters), easily and quickly gain my respect.

Likewise, the majority of people I've met, didn't have those poor traits either. Sadly, both in real life and on a few forums, I've run into people who had that rank, but talking to them, they make you feel like a piece of dirt.

Unfortunately, I have studied and tested under people like this, and it's demoralizing. I will say that while I showed them respect outwardly, I actually felt something closer to contempt inwardly. So, showing respect and having respect are not always the same in my experience.

 

[Kacey]

Okay, I saw some really good stuff, so I'm going to pick and choose just a few things to respond to - so please bear with me here. Also, I may repeat some things already said, because many people have touched on my view of this topic.

I'm interested in hearing everyones views. Are you one that walks around like you're the king or queen of the world, or do you keep that humble tone about you?

I'm the humble type. There is always someone younger, stronger, more flexible, faster, more knowledgeable, etc., for me to think that I am better than everyone (or even anyone) that I meet. Besides, respect should be earned - which includes humility - not assumed.

Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

Yes and no. Others have mentioned the hierarchy of MA, and that's part of it, as is the knowledge. There are people I respect for who they are, and there are people I respect for what they have achieved (but don't respect the person), and then there are people I respect both for who they are and what they have have achieved. And there are people I don't really respect at all - but they are few and far between. I can feel - and demonstrate - respect for a person's achievements (e.g. rank, certification) and still not respect the person - but that can often be a hard discrimination to make.

I believe that everybody deserves some measure of respect right off the bat. But respect is like a bank account, and many people make withdrawals right away, and I lose respect for them.

Very true - and something that too few people understand.

How can they learn what respect is like, unless they are shown it?

Your original statement included children - but I cut that part because too many adults have never been shown true respect, just courtesy; I can be courteous to people I don't respect, but at some point, it will become apparent that I am following the forms without feeling - for people I truly respect, I use the forms of courtesy as a demonstration of that respect, and my feelings of respect will show through the forms; for people I don't respect, whose position or achievement requires me to use the forms of courtesy, I can and will still do that - but the emotion of respect will be absent in regards to the person him/herself.

A respect for the knowledge we have engenders respect. in other words, if we are sincere in our imparting of the knowledge we will be respected.

...............

The problem stems from this. Knowledge appears to be attached to rank so, in the minds of some, rank equals knowledge. But just because you can do a set of techniques does not mean you know those techniques. I can use a number of mathematical formulae, but I don't know them the way a mathematician or physicist does.

...............

Those we do respect in the MA world are those individuals who have developed a great understanding and respect for their art. This shows through in all they do. They do not need to demand respect and adulation, their actions speak for them. They teach their art because they truly desire to pass the knowledge on to others.

Your entire post is quite good - I've just chosen those parts that resonate most strongly with my own opinion.

I try to give respect to everyone whether inside a dojang or out side. Martial artist or not. I know where you're coming from as far as higher ranks being ignorant.

.....................

For me showing respect isn't only for the other person it is just as much for my own beliefs, and humility.

As with ST's post, you make very good points, and I have left those parts that I agree with the most.

I've discussed this before - as a middle school teacher and a martial arts instructor, the two roles bleed into each other, and I find myself using the same terms - and feelings - of respect for my middle school students that I use for my TKD students... and I find that I have fewer behavior problems in my classes than many other teachers who have the same students. My school students know that I respect them - they see that I respect them - and they come to respect me based on that, and their behavior shows it.

However, because any martial art is a hierarchy, there will be people you meet whose rank requires your respect. It doesn't matter if you like them or not or if you think they deserve their rank or not.

.............

Thankfully, other than a kung fu brown sash with a very bad attitude many years ago, it's been my fortune, so far, never to have been presented with someone of rank whose personal traits did not support that rank. I pray that continues.

Again, some very good points, and I have left the part that most resonates with my own personal opinion and experiences. There are TKD'ists I know whom I do not respect as people - but none of those are people within my own organization... and those who are members of past organizations are not people I have any continued contact with; in fact, the inability to respect those peoples' actions are why I am no longer in the same organization as they are.

 

[Carol]

I'm interested in hearing everyones views. Are you one that walks around like you're the king or queen of the world, or do you keep that humble tone about you?

Queen of the world, of course. But I prefer High Priestess personally. :lol2:

Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

Mike

In all seriousness, I respect most other martial artists for being martial artists, or even for having a certain rank in the arts.

What I have a lot of trouble with is when respect is supposed to mean "not just respect but also admiration, endorsement, and subservience.

I also have trouble with respect is supposed to mean not just respect for the person but for all of their actions related to martial arts (or life in general).

So yes, I respect many people. However, I'm under the distinct impression that just "respect" is not enough in some situations. And that is where I draw the line.

 

[Last Fearner]

Humble, Respectful....

Do you feel that respect is a two way street, meaning that you have to give it to get it?

No, I do not feel respect is a two way street, because you don't really have to give it to get it (although that would be nice), and even if you do give it, that does not mean the person will give it back. As I have said in other posts on this subject, I don't believe you "give" or "get" respect. Those are slang terms that distort the true nature of what respect is. In my interpretation, respect is a feeling of worth you have within yourself for something that you believe is of value. You can display the feeling that you have by "showing" respect to others, or telling them you respect them, but it is yours, and yours alone to feel or not feel at your discretion.

Many here have said wonderful things on this topic, so if I may humbly reply with respect....

I believe that everybody deserves some measure of respect right off the bat.

I agree!

But respect is like a bank account, and many people make withdrawals right away, and I lose respect for them.

Interesting analogy. Perhaps this parallels the "value" perspective in a bank account.

I think it was Margaret Thatcher who said "Being powerful is like being a lady -- if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."

Now, wouldn't this quote by Margaret Thatcher be telling everyone that she is both powerful and a lady? hmmmm.

In my school, rank = responsibility. If you want someone to help you, then you better show them respect.

I agree with this also.

I've also hear that some systems require bowing to all Black Belts. We only bow to the teacher, and the flag, at the beginning and end of class.

In our school, we bow to anyone who is senior rank to you. We pay particular attention to any Black Belt and bow when a higher ranked Black Belt enters the room. This keeps students alert to their surroundings, makes them aware of who they should respect in the Dojang, and that each of these Black Belts has a senior that they bow to when that one walks in the room.

But everybody in the school is to be treated with respect, even the children. How can they learn what respect is like, unless they are shown it?

I understand what you are saying, and agree with it. On another point though, children learn from the example. They respect their senior color belts - the senior color belts respect the Black Belts - the Black Belts respect me, and I respect my Grandmaster. Yes, we are all courteous to the children, but like in Korea, there are ways that Adults talk to children, the children would never speak to an adult. We don't "disrespect" the child, but we don't encourage them to have this attitude of, "hey, you adults show me some respect first, or I'm not gonna respect you!" Children learn proper behavior and manners, and they are respected for their actions and conduct.

I try to give respect to everyone whether inside a dojang or out side. Martial artist or not....
...I find reasons to respect everyone I come across.

Excellent attitude - IMHO!

Even if all I can find good about them is the fact that they beat 400,000 other sperm to the egg.

Interesting perspective.

But when I bow to her I show respect for the Grandmaster's opinion of her and the rank he gave her.

I agree with you here, and I think it is sad when people don't get that.

I believe that if you give repect, others will repect you.

Here is where I disagree. Like I said earlier, this is why I say it is not a "two way street." You can give (or show) respect, but the other person does not automatically have to give it (or show it) back. It might happen, and it is nice when it does, but they are independent of one another.

For me showing respect isn't only for the other person it is just as much for my own beliefs, and humility.

This is truly the most insightful, and best response I have read yet! :asian:

because any martial art is a hierarchy, there will be people you meet whose rank requires your respect. It doesn't matter if you like them or not or if you think they deserve their rank or not.

I agree with you 100%

By being objectionable in response or failing to observe the proper respect for their rank you are exhibiting traits that do not 'belong' in a martial arts context.

I can absolutely get behind you on this one!

"You want the school; the school does not need you".

I agree, but will take it in a different direction. I will tell a student that I have already learned what you are seeking. I don't have to be here teaching. I share what I know with others for their benefit. I have already put in the hard work, and proven myself to my instructor so don't come here demanding that I prove myself to you. First, we must get our roles straight. I am the teacher, and you are the student. My job is to teach, and your job is to learn. Don't presume to correct my teaching methods because of some book you read, or some movie you've seen a dozen times, or some other Martial Art school you attended for 2 1/2 years. Empty your cup, and open your mind. Later, you can reject everything I have taught you, if you wish.

I'm going to give an analogy here, because I feel this is important to this topic of "automatic respect" that gets brought up so often. When I was in the Army, one of the obstacle courses we were required to accomplish involved a tall tower of several platforms, with each platform getting wider, and more difficult the higher you go (see photo attachment below). Each platoon of about a dozen soldiers would make their way from the ground to the top, but it was not every man for himself. We would boost two or three up, then each would turn around, get down on their knees or lay on their stomachs, reach down and help pull up the rest of the squad one-by-one. No one got to the top alone, but those who were above you took the time to help you, and several others up.

If you compare this to the Martial Art ranking hierarchy, imagine a tower with 18 platforms. If I see there are Grandmasters up at the distant top, and I climb to reach their level, it will take me some time, and a lot of work. As I go, I make sure that I stop and help a few people up to my platform before moving on. As everyone struggles to reach the top, some might begin to step on the heads, and fingers of others, pushing them back down to make their own way up. I choose not to do that.

I work my way up nine platforms, and realize there are nine more difficult levels to go. One or two of the Grandmasters at the top notice my respect for others, and climb down to help me up a few levels. These Grandmasters have been up and down the tower many times in their lifetime, and can scale the tower in seconds all by themselves. Once they get me beyond the throng, to the 14th platform, I see four more difficult levels above me, but I also notice the many people beneath me struggling to climb up, so I help them. After some time at this level, these Grandmasters who have helped so much tell me to get my butt back down there to the 1st level and start helping even more people up - - so I bow, say "yes, sir!" and go do it.

After several trips up and down, I begin to feel comfortable with my skills at traversing the levels and helping others up. It's been a hard life, but I'm proud of it, and it was worth every scrape and cut, and all the blood, sweat and tears. Now, I see other people having been air-lifted to the very top of other towers near-by, and standing up there as though they are the greatest grandmasters. I see others standing on my tower who I watched step on people and push people out of their way to get to the top. I just continue to help others and am grateful when the Grandmasters at the top help me up one more level.

Then, one day, I'm back near the bottom to help some new beginners get started. One of them questions my methods and begins to argue with me. I politely tell him to have patience, trust me, and I will help him get to the next level. Along the way, I will help him to become stronger, so that he can help others. Again, he challenges my knowledge of how to traverse up the tower, and says to me, "don't expect me to respect you just because you are at a higher level. YOU have to EARN my respect first."

"I'm sorry. I don't have to earn anything from you, sir!" YOU need to learn to respect those who are at a higher level, NOT because they are at a higher level, but how they got there, and what they already did in their life-time to EARN that rank and position. I was not air-lifted to get here, and I did not step on others to put me above them, but you were not here during the decades that these things took place.

You need to respect those on the higher level because they are taking the time to get down on their knees, reach out a hand to you and help pull you up. However, you are going to have to do your part and not expect me to lift your dead weight body up here all on my own while you complain about respect. Now close your mouth - open your hand - grab my hand, and lets work together to get you one step closer to understanding what I'm talking about!"

Think about this. It is difficult to teach people about proper table manners and etiquette, unless you critique them, in which case, some people will be offended and consider you to be the rude one. It is difficult to get a room full of people to be quiet, without making some noise yourself. Sitting quietly sets a good example, but does not always bring about the desired results in a timely manner. Sometimes you have to say, "Shhhhhh! Please be quiet." You had to make some noise in order to bring about silence.

As a Martial Art instructor, I teach respect to many people who don't understand it. Respecting them, or leading by example and respecting my seniors is a good start, but often times, I find it necessary and appropriate to insist on displays of respect, whether they feel respect yet or not. I am teaching them the concept of respect, and how to show it to others - - not that I am demanding it for myself, but I am the teacher in the room upon whom they practice, and learn to respect. Not all students grasp the concept from the start, but all my students are expected to conduct themselves in the same manner, and show the same proper respect until they learn what it means.

In all seriousness, I respect most other martial artists for being martial artists, or even for having a certain rank in the arts.

So yes, I respect many people. However, I'm under the distinct impression that just "respect" is not enough in some situations. And that is where I draw the line.

Carol, you had an excellent post, and I agree with everything you said. :asian: