Report saying America was a safe haven for Nazis after the war

[Tez3]

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681

I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.

 

[crushing]

"Safe haven for Nazis" sounds a bit exagerrated. According to the article, some scientists were allowed in to the US. Here it is 2010 and former Nazis are still be deported from the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-guard-to-be-deported-from-US-to-Austria.html

There are many, many stories like like this over the years.

 

[Tez3]

"Safe haven for Nazis" sounds a bit exagerrated. According to the article, some scientists were allowed in to the US. Here it is 2010 and former Nazis are still be deported from the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-guard-to-be-deported-from-US-to-Austria.html

There are many, many stories like like this over the years.

Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.

 

[crushing]

Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.

Yes, the US became a safe haven for some scientists that apparently were Nazis, but the title implied, perhaps purposefully, something more general.

The former Soviet Union was a safe haven for some, Australia another for others and many went to Central America. There have been safe havens around the world for Nazis. Especially if they could contribute to those countries in certain ways. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bidding war between the US and Russia to recruit the best and brightest scientists that may have been forced to swear allegience to the Nazi party in Hitler's Germany.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681

I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.

At that time, the partitioning of Germany was occurring. It was becoming clear that the Soviet Union was to become an enemy (the beginning of the 'Cold War') and we wanted to get those assets out of Germany so that they could not be used against us by the Soviets. This is my understanding of it. I do not believe that there was any favorable Nazi sentiment lingering about; we just wanted the people and the knowledge they had.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.

Mmm. Otoh I cannot help but think that this is like calling a prison a safe haven for criminals.

And from a pragmatic pov like intelligence:
Yes, many high value assets were brought to the US for extended debriefing.
Russia did the same thing. People like von Braun were highly valuable. They could have shot him of course, but that would be (in the eyes of the intelligence services) a huge waste.

The war was won, let bygones be bygones and get as much of the spoils as possible. Let's not worry about who killed whom. Instead rejoice and celebrate the happy occasion of getting valuable info (parody of the sir Lancelot scene of the holy grail so don't get angry)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.

hmmmm... Josef Mengele and friends went to South America....funny...no mention of that...

More USA bashing, it has become the hobby of many these days


Now to the report...is this true? ...to some extent yes.... now if a flame post is what you want.... now can we get into the very big part that the British Empire played in the whole middle east issue and helping start terrorism and making it what it is today.... Or we could get into the British Empire’s use of social Darwinism to subjugate entire societies if you prefer.. Or since we are bringing up history we could get into who was very instrumental in saving Britain and Europe during WW II...

Bottom-line... no one that is or was ever considered a world power or super power is free from guilt due to having more than 1 skeleton in its closet it would prefer to forget

This whole thing, IMO, is silly, inflammatory and basically a posting that is just trying to start a fight... and there is enough of that going on all over the world for me thanks... don't need more here... and I will have no more to do with it.

 

[punisher73]

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681

I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.

That's like blaming England for the Holocaust because they refused to accept Jews from Germany to occupied territory in Africa(asked before the "Final Solution" was enacted) or because England did not attend the conference that they were invited to for discussion of the 'jewish problem'.

Every "civilized" country has done something that seemed prudent at the time, but hindsight shows was a mistake. Atrocities aside, their scientists were leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. It was a scramble for many of the nations to get as many of their scientists as they could to help out their own countries.

 

[Tez3]

hmmmm... Josef Mengele and friends went to South America....funny...no mention of that...

More USA bashing, it has become the hobby of many these days


Now to the report...is this true? ...to some extent yes.... now if a flame post is what you want.... now can we get into the very big part that the British Empire played in the whole middle east issue and helping start terrorism and making it what it is today.... Or we could get into the British Empire’s use of social Darwinism to subjugate entire societies if you prefer.. Or since we are bringing up history we could get into who was very instrumental in saving Britain and Europe during WW II...

Bottom-line... no one that is or was ever considered a world power or super power is free from guilt due to having more than 1 skeleton in its closet it would prefer to forget

This whole thing, IMO, is silly, inflammatory and basically a posting that is just trying to start a fight... and there is enough of that going on all over the world for me thanks... don't need more here... and I will have no more to do with it.

Well the report came from the New York Times so do they bash America? it's not in the British media, it's from AOL another American owned media outlet.

Flame war? no, I didn't post that America is a safe haven I said report says, that report is from an American source in an American paper, I was inviting comments.

another American paper reporting this
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/nat...says_Nazi_hunters_kept_some_for_the_U_S_.html

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well the report came from the New York Times so do they bash America? it's not in the British media, it's from AOL another American owned media outlet.

Flame war? no, I didn't post that America is a safe haven I said report says, that report is from an American source in an American paper, I was inviting comments.

another American paper reporting this
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/nat...says_Nazi_hunters_kept_some_for_the_U_S_.html

from... news.aol.co.uk <---- uk

And maybe it is just me but I did not get the impression that you were asking for comments from either of your posts

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681

I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.

And I particularly did not get that impression from this one... this was, at least to me...much more accusatory

Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.

But then maybe it is just me... shall we talk about the evils of the empire now or is the US still in the sights

 

[elder999]

Well I was inviting comments.

It's old news. Heck, our military used Nazi concentration camp data on "experiments" with freezing-in fact, most of what we know about how the human body reacts to freezing comes from those events.

And, a while ago Tez posted something about our space program and how we couldn't have done it without the British (or the Aussies, for that matter), but we really couldn't have done it without those Germans. Were they truly Nazis, or like many others who had to join the party, just Germans? I couldn't say.

We sure did grab as many as we could, though.....

 

[Tez3]

Here's the original New York Times article about the American Justice Department's report.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Report%20on%20Nazis%20being%20brought%20to%20America&st=cse

My OP says merely that I knew about von Braun and that the report says more were brought to America, there's no accusation in there but I do have an intense personal interest in the whereabouts of Nazis. If this report isn't true say so or add your comments on this American report.
I called it a safe haven which is the report is true it would have been. If they'd been taken to the UK I would have asked and said exactly the same questions and words.
People seem to be very defensive over something which appeared in American newspapers, with my history how can you not expect me to take an interest? You are very quick to judge and very quick to defend against accusations that aren't there.

I'm very aware of Britain's part in the refusing of Jewish refugees, in it's conduct of sending Jews back to the camps they came from after the war was over, of putting Jews in a camp on Cyprus, of their withdrawal out of Palestine before Independance after disarming the Jews and arming the Arabs. I'm very aware of the pograms in the UK, I live not many miles away from one in York at Cliffords Tower, I'm aware of the pogrom in Wales in the 1900s etc etc etc.


Elder I'm sure it wasn't me who posted anything about the space programme, I don't know anything about it!!

 

[elder999]

Elder I'm sure it wasn't me who posted anything about the space programme, I don't know anything about it!!

A great many people educated in many countries worked on the moon projectas well as Americans. The money of course was American.

Btw how many of you use Nokia phones or enjoy a sauna, both very civilised additions to the human condition.

There's another, somewhere..........:lol:

 

[Tez3]

There's another, somewhere..........:lol:

Ah that but it doesn't say I know anything about the technical stuff lo, I thought you meant that! it was a thread about education! My scientific knowledge would fill a aspirin if that! I was racking my brains trying to think when I'd posted on something technical, it made my brain hurt!



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB331/index.htm

Now I don't know if the National Archive is political or purely academic but they started it all it seems.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My OP says merely that I knew about von Braun and that the report says more were brought to America, there's no accusation in there but I do have an intense personal interest in the whereabouts of Nazis. If this report isn't true say so or add your comments on this American report.

But I already said it was true to some extent.

I called it a safe haven which is the report is true it would have been. If they'd been taken to the UK I would have asked and said exactly the same questions and words.
People seem to be very defensive over something which appeared in American newspapers, with my history how can you not expect me to take an interest? You are very quick to judge and very quick to defend against accusations that aren't there.

Safe haven for Nazis.... not in general.... a few... maybe... but apparently Mengele did not beleive it was he went to South America

And yes I am quick to... yadda yadda yadda who cares whatever.... and I shall leave it at that because the rest just becomes an argument... and a silly one at that

 

[crushing]

Dig around some more and you will also probably find stories that the CIA hired Nazi scientists that were recuited by and went to Russia to spy for the US. I wouldn't be surprised if they were hired by the CIA before "choosing" Russia.

Tez, If anything, you've exposed a double-standard in America. Former Nazi steelworkers get deported whilst former Nazi scientists get to work for the US government. At least it doesn't appear you had that double standard.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article555186.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/feb/04/secondworldwar.germany
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1525553.stm

 

[Tez3]

Xue Sheng, I was making no accusations, I'm well aware of the attitude of governments (all governments) towards what is expedient and how they will get into bed with anything and anyone they think with benefit them with the excuse it's for the good of the country, mankind or whatever. However I wasn't pointing the finger nor was I bashing America, I don't know why you think I was and to start accusing me of that is unfair. I used the would 'if' and made sure it said it was the report. To start Brit bashing in return is also unfair.

Like many Jews the subject of the Nazis and the war is never in the past, it is with us constantly. Those of us that have elderly relatives who survived the war are reminded always, the bane of old age is that one remembers the past easier than the future and they suffer now. Those of us that lack relatives because they didn't survive the Nazis are also always reminded by their absence.

To have former Nazis here is appalling, the government's decision to let them stay is terribly wrong especially after it had already sent many Russians back to the USSR where they knew they would be executed by the communists. There are people here who are trying to have these Nazis brought to answer to the courts as to their conduct during the war but many think it should be left to lie. I think it extraordinary to allow prisoners of war to settle in this country. I'm also disgusted by this country's use of translators. !n Iraq and then leaving them there to be executed also.

The point the Nazi hunters like Simon Wiesanthal have always made is that we must chase them down however long it takes to bring them to justice because it sends the message to all that we, as human beings, will not tolerate mass murder and what is now called ethhnic cleansing. And truly we must not leave these people to their comfortable lives, even if we have to bring old men to court it must be done. The Saddams, the Mladics, the Milosevics, the Karadzics etc of this world must know that however long it takes we will come for them.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=8876241

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, I was making no accusations, I'm well aware of the attitude of governments (all governments) towards what is expedient and how they will get into bed with anything and anyone they think with benefit them with the excuse it's for the good of the country, mankind or whatever. However I wasn't pointing the finger nor was I bashing America, I don't know why you think I was and to start accusing me of that is unfair. I used the would 'if' and made sure it said it was the report. To start Brit bashing in return is also unfair.

Like many Jews the subject of the Nazis and the war is never in the past, it is with us constantly. Those of us that have elderly relatives who survived the war are reminded always, the bane of old age is that one remembers the past easier than the future and they suffer now. Those of us that lack relatives because they didn't survive the Nazis are also always reminded by their absence.

To have former Nazis here is appalling, the government's decision to let them stay is terribly wrong especially after it had already sent many Russians back to the USSR where they knew they would be executed by the communists. There are people here who are trying to have these Nazis brought to answer to the courts as to their conduct during the war but many think it should be left to lie. I think it extraordinary to allow prisoners of war to settle in this country. I'm also disgusted by this country's use of translators. !n Iraq and then leaving them there to be executed also.

The point the Nazi hunters like Simon Wiesanthal have always made is that we must chase them down however long it takes to bring them to justice because it sends the message to all that we, as human beings, will not tolerate mass murder and what is now called ethhnic cleansing. And truly we must not leave these people to their comfortable lives, even if we have to bring old men to court it must be done. The Saddams, the Mladics, the Milosevics, the Karadzics etc of this world must know that however long it takes we will come for them.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=8876241

Who is Brit bashing? Historic facts be historic facts not bashing and like the supplied, albeit somewhat sensationalized, link to the article about the Nazi harboring US, what I stated were facts.

But surprisingly this thread has left me in a rather strange mood... I think I need to make another thread

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's old news. Heck, our military used Nazi concentration camp data on "experiments" with freezing-in fact, most of what we know about how the human body reacts to freezing comes from those events.

And, a while ago Tez posted something about our space program and how we couldn't have done it without the British (or the Aussies, for that matter), but we really couldn't have done it without those Germans. Were they truly Nazis, or like many others who had to join the party, just Germans? I couldn't say.

We sure did grab as many as we could, though.....

Along those lines, there have been serious discussions about the ethics of using data gathered from the torture and killing of Jews by Nazis during WWII. The questions are deep, there are no easy answers.

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html

 

[Empty Hands]

The point the Nazi hunters like Simon Wiesanthal have always made is that we must chase them down however long it takes to bring them to justice because it sends the message to all that we, as human beings, will not tolerate mass murder and what is now called ethhnic cleansing.

I agree with that. I think this situation is a bit more complex, however. I don't think "defecting" scientists like Von Braun were ever connected to the murder or mistreatment of Jews or other prisoners (correct me if I'm wrong). They should be punished for what they actually did, not merely the regime they worked for. Choosing whether or not to work with the Nazis was hardly a simple choice, after all. I'm sure their lives would be forfeit if they said no.

So yes, Von Braun helped design rockets which took British lives. Kruppe and Messerschmit designed weapons which took Allied lives as well. Everyone involved down to the common man riveting sheet metal did so as well. At what point is it unfair to call them "Nazis" and hold them accountable for war crimes, when we would never consider weapon designers and manufacturers working for ourselves or other countries as war criminals? What about every soldier in the Luftwaffe or Wehrmacht who actually pulled the triggers, can we label all of them Nazis and war criminals too?

Unless the scientists can be connected to important and influential support of the regime (i.e. important industrial backers so critical in 1933) or murder/abuse of prisoners, then it hardly makes sense to call them Nazis and war criminals. It goes against all of our earlier standards.