Repeated movements in the first form

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well all forms have repeated movements, like you do one thing on one side and then the same on the opposite side.

This is untrue. I can think of plenty of forms that do not do this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well all forms have repeated movements, like you do one thing on one side and then the same on the opposite side.

Form is used for recording. Form is not used for training.

You take information out of a form, make it into a drill, you then train that drill left and right. Whether a form contain duplicated moves or not should have nothing to do with your training.

In the following clip, the "left foot sweep" exists at 0.37. The form creator didn't add "right foot sweep" in his form. If you train this form all your life, you will never be able to do "right foot sweep".

 

[nipper219]

This is untrue. I can think of plenty of forms that do not do this.

Well, I can think of MANY that DO THAT.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, I can think of MANY that DO THAT.

So can I. But you said all forms do that; that specifically was the reason that I commented.

 

[nipper219]

So can I. But you said all forms do that; that specifically was the reason that I commented.

Oh, well all the forms that we do in my Dojang have repeated moves. So, that's all I meant.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh, well all the forms that we do in my Dojang have repeated moves. So, that's all I meant.

I have never seen any form that has "clockwise tornado kick".

"Counter clockwise tornado kick" can be seen at 0.45 in this video.

and 0.15 in this video.

 

[Flying Crane]

Form is used for recording. Form is not used for training.

Not everyone would agree with this statement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not everyone would agree with this statement.

As I have said, if you train this form in the following video only (without training drills), you can only train:

- left foot sweep (at 0.37), and
- counterclockwise tornado kick (at 0.45).

You will never have chance to train

- right foot sweep, and
- clockwise tornado kick.

Is that what you want for the rest of your life?

 

[Flying Crane]

As I have said, if you train this form in the following video only (without training drills), you can only train:

- left foot sweep (at 0.37), and
- counterclockwise tornado kick (at 0.45).

You will never have chance to train

- right foot sweep, and
- clockwise tornado kick.

Is that what you want for the rest of your life?

My disagreement is in the idea that forms are not for training, that they only serve the purpose of recording. I never said the form is everything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My disagreement is in the idea that forms are not for training, that they only serve the purpose of recording. I never said the form is everything.

Suppose your form contains 3 sentences:

- This is a book.
- One should not steal.
- To do is to be.

Please notice that there are no logic connection between:

- book, One.
- steal, To.

When you train "This is a book. One should not steal. To do is to be.", you will get exactly the same result as if you train 3 different drills, "This is a book.", "One should not steal.", "To do is to be".

Did the form creator expect us to train his form from the 1st move to the last move? I truly don't believe that was the intention of the form creator.

 

[Flying Crane]

Suppose your form contains 3 sentences:

- This is a book.
- One should not steal.
- To do is to be.

Please notice that there are no logic connection between:

- book, One.
- steal, To.

When you train "This is a book. One should not steal. To do is to be.", you will get exactly the same result as if you train 3 different drills, "This is a book.", "One should not steal.", "To do is to be".

Did the form creator expect us to train his form from the 1st move to the last move? I truly don't believe that was the intention of the form creator.

I imagine the creator of the form expected students to do all kinds of things with it. Including working it from start to finish. And working it on the other side of it is decidedly one-sided. And to take pieces of it and drill that material as shorter application drills. That is, if he/she intended students to do anything at all with it. Perhaps it was something developed for his own training and he taught it to his student as an example of what can be done with the expectation that the student would come up with his own and ultimately abandon the form that the creator taught.

Nobody knows and it does not matter, what the creator intended.

If you feel the form does not have training value and only has record-keeping value, then for you that is all it has.

For others, we recognize how to practice the form, in its entirety, in a way that has training value. And again, the form is not everything. It is one thing of several that, when used together, can make for a useful training program.

 

[hunschuld]

The original purpose of the repeated movements in the forms are to help you develope the internal side of wing chun. Internal meaning proper breathing and the use of the 7 bows.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well all forms have repeated movements, like you do one thing on one side and then the same on the opposite side. It looks clean, and professional. But beyond that, the moves in the forms are basic and repeating them is important to create a muscle memory and natural instinct with the movements. So, basically it's to get those basic core movements down that you need to get higher up in the ranks. Its practice, and practice is repetition. And repetition is key. They are repeated in all the forms, not just the first one.

This is incorrect, even if the conversation were about taekwondo forms. Which it isn't. It's about a specific Chinese form.
It is true of most of the more commonly used beginner TKD forms, but it is a mistake to assume that it holds true at higher levels. It does not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, I can think of MANY that DO THAT.

Name 15.

Oh, well all the forms that we do in my Dojang have repeated moves. So, that's all I meant.

Then you probably should have said that. What forms do you study?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you do one thing on one side and then the same on the opposite side.

After you have done your form, you just do your form on the other side. Your form may become twice as long, but you can train both sides equally.

I don't train form. But I train drills. After I have trained my drill 10 times, I'll repeat it 10 times on the other side.

Whoever had created this form in the following video had "both sides balance" in his mind. The form creator might create a short form. Since he included both sides, a short form turned into a regular size form.

- sequence 1 (east).
- different side sequence 1 (west).
- sequence 2 (east).
- different side sequence 2 (west).

A 2 sequences form then turn into a 4 sequences form. It's an excellent way to create a balanced form.

 

[nipper219]

Name 15.

Then you probably should have said that. What forms do you study?

I study palgwe il, palgwe ee, palgwe sam, palgwe sa, palgwe oh, palgwe yuk palgwe jang, palgwe pal chil, and palgwe pal jang. These are just the ones that I closely study. I study others as well.

 

[nipper219]

Form is used for recording. Form is not used for training.

It is not at all just used for recording. It is highly used for training. It has different skills needed for use in basic training. So, no this statement is not true.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I study palgwe il, palgwe ee, palgwe sam, palgwe sa, palgwe oh, palgwe yuk palgwe jang, palgwe pal chil, and palgwe pal jang. These are just the ones that I closely study. I study others as well.

That's not "lots", some of those are not even Palgwae forms ("palgwe [sic] pal chil", for example), and those are not all mirrored. In fact, most of them are not. Let's look at just the easiest example, shall we?

In Poomsae Palwgae (note spelling) Ee Jang, step 5 is a right Back Stance with a left Low Knifehand Block. This is not mirrored.
Step 6 is a left Back Stance with a double knifehand middle block. This is not mirrored.
Step 13 is a right Back Stance with a left Supported Low Block. This is not mirrored.
Step 14 is a left Back Stance with a right Supported Middle Block. This is not mirrored.
Step 15 is a left Front Stance with a left Outside-Inside Middle Block. This is not mirrored.
There are only 20 steps in the form, of which 25% are not mirrored. That doesn't seem to support your claim at all...

The Palgwae forms are really not mirrored forms, despite what you've claimed. If you like, I can go through each one for you. I'm likely to limit that to one non-mirrored technique per form though, because that's sufficient to disprove your claims without taking much effort on my part.

Just for reference, I hold a 7th Dan from the MooDukKwan. We still teach the original Palgwae forms, and I am the author of two books on the MooDukKwan. My Kwanjangnim was a direct student under GM Hwang Kee, the founder of the MooDukKwan.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It is not at all just used for recording. It is highly used for training. It has different skills needed for use in basic training. So, no this statement is not true.

He's expressing his view on how forms are used in his Chinese art. That seems to have gone as far over your head as the jokes in your other thread. Very sad.

 

[geezer]

I have never seen any form that has "clockwise tornado kick".

Clockwise tornado kick?

That would be an anti-cyclonic tornado kick. They are more common in the southern hemisphere. You know. The Coriolis effect and all that.