Repeated movements in the first form

[Callen]

When talking about

- boxing, people will address offense skill such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
- TKD, people will address offense skill such as front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo, people will address offense skill such as hip throw, leg lift, front cut, inner hook, ...
- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

IMO properly trained Wing Chun people don't really address "defense skill", they address the ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system into a single reaction; or what is also known as a Wing Chun action.

We have had numerous discussions on this topic over the years. It seems like it typically comes down to how the mechanics of the system are understood. Shapes (Taan, Fuk, Bong, Pak, Jaam, Jut, Gaan, etc…) can either be superficially viewed as separate, stand-alone “blocks”; or shapes can be trained as parts of the same whole.

From my experience, Wing Chun is not about doing a certain technique or patented answer, it is about using primary shapes (mechanics) and concepts to direct the reactions and goals of the system; keep the reflex set simple, hit directly (chase center) with the vertical punch when the way is clear.

Two Wing Chun maxims that should be used as a training compass to help properly drive the goals and mechanics of the system are:

Lin Siu Daai Da 連消帶打 - It has been said that the science of Wing Chun is to attack the attack, defense and offense together into the same action.

Lat Sau Jik Chung 甩手直衝 - Lat Sau Jik Chung is the ability to attack instinctively the instant there is a gap in the opponent's defense. This is built by training the skill to respond automatically, regardless if we are consciously aware of the hole (weakness) in our attacker’s defense or not. This also aims to reduce reaction time and aids the goal of attacking and defending simultaneously (Lin Siu Daa Dai), reminding us that every action should result in a hit.

 

[wckf92]

IMO properly trained Wing Chun people don't really address "defense skill",

Agreed. This is opposite of the goal IMO. The goal is to be "in front of" the attackers OODA loop, not after. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Callen]

Agreed. This is opposite of the goal IMO. The goal is to be "in front of" the attackers OODA loop, not after. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, I would say so. IMO that's why we train for specific responses, building habit and developing skill, ultimately in an attempt to remove the need for anticipation. Both hands always go out proactively to do business by controlling, hitting with chained attacks, and chasing center. Shapes are not defensive, just a consequence of putting all of the VT mechanics to work.

 

[_Simon_]

IMO properly trained Wing Chun people don't really address "defense skill", they address the ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system into a single reaction; or what is also known as a Wing Chun action.

We have had numerous discussions on this topic over the years. It seems like it typically comes down to how the mechanics of the system are understood. Shapes (Taan, Fuk, Bong, Pak, Jaam, Jut, Gaan, etc…) can either be superficially viewed as separate, stand-alone “blocks”; or shapes can be trained as parts of the same whole.

From my experience, Wing Chun is not about doing a certain technique or patented answer, it is about using primary shapes (mechanics) and concepts to direct the reactions and goals of the system; keep the reflex set simple, hit directly (chase center) with the vertical punch when the way is clear.

Am not a WC guy but this was very insightful for my art actually, thanks!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing Chun people don't really address "defense skill",

That's the correct attitude IMO. In throw art, which one is better?

- To apply hip throw and lose? or
- To apply hip throw counter and win?

If you apply

- hip throw and lose, one day you will have chance to apply hip throw and win.
- hip throw counter and win, you may never have chance to apply hip throw and win for the rest of your life.

I believe the same logic can also apply to the striking art.

 

[OffendedOnyx]

IMO properly trained Wing Chun people don't really address "defense skill", they address the ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system into a single reaction; or what is also known as a Wing Chun action.

We have had numerous discussions on this topic over the years. It seems like it typically comes down to how the mechanics of the system are understood. Shapes (Taan, Fuk, Bong, Pak, Jaam, Jut, Gaan, etc…) can either be superficially viewed as separate, stand-alone “blocks”; or shapes can be trained as parts of the same whole.

From my experience, Wing Chun is not about doing a certain technique or patented answer, it is about using primary shapes (mechanics) and concepts to direct the reactions and goals of the system; keep the reflex set simple, hit directly (chase center) with the vertical punch when the way is clear.

Two Wing Chun maxims that should be used as a training compass to help properly drive the goals and mechanics of the system are:

Lin Siu Daai Da 連消帶打 - It has been said that the science of Wing Chun is to attack the attack, defense and offense together into the same action.

Lat Sau Jik Chung 甩手直衝 - Lat Sau Jik Chung is the ability to attack instinctively the instant there is a gap in the opponent's defense. This is built by training the skill to respond automatically, regardless if we are consciously aware of the hole (weakness) in our attacker’s defense or not. This also aims to reduce reaction time and aids the goal of attacking and defending simultaneously (Lin Siu Daa Dai), reminding us that every action should result in a hit.

Its not superficial its at a certain level.
The skill of double hitting attacking simultaneously or with a slightly/large broken rythem but still in the same beat is an extremely advanced skill from the perspective of other martial arts.
Lets say you are going to use a Pak and a Bong simultaneously...when something like that even logically/physically be true?
Lets say this is all going off your lead left.
Assume the person throws their a left straight punch (WC not boxing) and a rear/right Cross (WC not boxing) or translated to blades...a double stab...with the right a milisecond behind the left..
you could then use a single hand double block but the vast majority of attacks whether sport or not, dont really occur
you would be training for a very tiny minute fraction of the martial arts community skill wise...and even further an even smaller more minute fraction of the martial arts community who would attack someone

Its just extremely rare
but it is your life

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The skill of double hitting attacking simultaneously

It's not double hitting. It's 1 block and 1 punch.

Instead of to block first and punch afterward, you just do it at the same time. Depending on your arms position, you may not be able to do this all the time.

I don't like this strategy because you always assume that your opponent will punch you first. You then deal with his punch. I prefer to punch at my opponent first, let my opponent to respond to my punch. I then deal with his respond.

The better strategy is:

- You knock on your opponent's door.
- When your opponent opens his door,
- You then enter.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

When talking about

- boxing, people will address offense skill such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
- TKD, people will address offense skill such as front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo, people will address offense skill such as hip throw, leg lift, front cut, inner hook, ...
- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

Here is an excellent breakdown from Sifu Adam Williss about how each of the 3 main techniques are actually offense:

 

[Callen]

Its not superficial its at a certain level.
The skill of double hitting attacking simultaneously or with a slightly/large broken rythem but still in the same beat is an extremely advanced skill from the perspective of other martial arts.
Lets say you are going to use a Pak and a Bong simultaneously...when something like that even logically/physically be true?
Lets say this is all going off your lead left.
Assume the person throws their a left straight punch (WC not boxing) and a rear/right Cross (WC not boxing) or translated to blades...a double stab...with the right a milisecond behind the left..
you could then use a single hand double block but the vast majority of attacks whether sport or not, dont really occur
you would be training for a very tiny minute fraction of the martial arts community skill wise...and even further an even smaller more minute fraction of the martial arts community who would attack someone

The goal is to hit. Both hands go out to hit, if there's an obstacle, clear the way while hitting simultaneously.

Are you familiar with the famous Wing Chun maxim, “Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung“? Wong Shun Leung taught Lin Siu Daai Da (simultaneous attack and defense) as the ‘Loi Lau’ idea from this maxim. This is WSLVT bread and butter.

Simultaneous attack and defense teaches us that the very best way to overwhelm an opponent is to attack them at the instant that they are themselves committed to an attack. Regardless of lineage, this is what the Wing Chun system is built upon. Wing Chun practitioners strive to train for this skill, it is the mothership. Because of this, simultaneous attack and defense is a common beginner core Wing Chun concept that typically gets developed from day one. And in my opinion, properly understanding a pivotal concept like Lin Siu Daai Da is a solid example of why learning Wing Chun in-person from a reputable source ( a sifu/coach/instructor that has completed the system ) has incredible value.

We train to meet the oncoming attack and fire-off a counter measure at exactly the same time, before the opponent can launch another attack. Hitting is always the goal. This is made simple because all Wing Chun mechanics serve to support the development of simultaneous attack and defense, effectively attacking the attack. In fact, that is Wing Chun’s primary mission. Even the “Jeet” in Jeet Kune Do came from this concept. So it might also help you to think of Lin Siu Daai Da not just as simultaneous attack and defense, but also as “intercepting” the attack.

From my perspective, when discussing Wing Chun shapes as they relate to the entire system, it’s best not to complicate things with hypothetical scenarios that involve imagining what someone can do in certain situations. To do that, is to miss the essence of what the system teaches us. The shapes ( Taan, Fuk, Bong, Pak, Jaam, Jut, Gaan, etc… and especially the punch ) are simply expressions of the Wing Chun mechanics. In this way of thinking, the system is ultimately more about properly learning how to develop those mechanics into effective actions, than it is about which shapes we use to get there. Simultaneous attack and defense, along with attacking instinctively the instant there is a gap in the opponent's defense, are core Wing Chun fundamentals that serve to build these skills through the system’s mechanics.

Wong Shun Leung, for example, taught that his method was simply about developing the punch. More specifically firing directly with the vertical punch, which he believed required unique mechanics. Everything else is just a consequence of putting all of the VT mechanics into action.

Its just extremely rare
but it is your life

Lin Siu Daai Da ( simultaneous attack and defense ) is a core concept that starts from day one, it is absolutely not rare in the Wing Chun system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Both hands go out to hit,

Let's compare the following 2 different strategies.

1. You block/deflect your opponent's punch and punch back at the same time.
2. You throw a punch, your opponent responds to it. You then punch through the opening that you have just created.

By using strategy

- 1, since you extend both hands at the same time, you are not rotating your body, your punching power may not be the maximum.
- 2, you can use your 1st punch as "compress", use your 2nd punch as "release". Since you can add body rotation into your 2nd punch, you can generate maximin punching power.

Example of strategy 1:

Example of strategy 2:

 

[OffendedOnyx]

The goal is to hit. Both hands go out to hit, if there's an obstacle, clear the way while hitting simultaneously.

Are you familiar with the famous Wing Chun maxim, “Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung“? Wong Shun Leung taught Lin Siu Daai Da (simultaneous attack and defense) as the ‘Loi Lau’ idea from this maxim. This is WSLVT bread and butter.

Simultaneous attack and defense teaches us that the very best way to overwhelm an opponent is to attack them at the instant that they are themselves committed to an attack. Regardless of lineage, this is what the Wing Chun system is built upon. Wing Chun practitioners strive to train for this skill, it is the mothership. Because of this, simultaneous attack and defense is a common beginner core Wing Chun concept that typically gets developed from day one. And in my opinion, properly understanding a pivotal concept like Lin Siu Daai Da is a solid example of why learning Wing Chun in-person from a reputable source ( a sifu/coach/instructor that has completed the system ) has incredible value.

We train to meet the oncoming attack and fire-off a counter measure at exactly the same time, before the opponent can launch another attack. Hitting is always the goal. This is made simple because all Wing Chun mechanics serve to support the development of simultaneous attack and defense, effectively attacking the attack. In fact, that is Wing Chun’s primary mission. Even the “Jeet” in Jeet Kune Do came from this concept. So it might also help you to think of Lin Siu Daai Da not just as simultaneous attack and defense, but also as “intercepting” the attack.

From my perspective, when discussing Wing Chun shapes as they relate to the entire system, it’s best not to complicate things with hypothetical scenarios that involve imagining what someone can do in certain situations. To do that, is to miss the essence of what the system teaches us. The shapes ( Taan, Fuk, Bong, Pak, Jaam, Jut, Gaan, etc… and especially the punch ) are simply expressions of the Wing Chun mechanics. In this way of thinking, the system is ultimately more about properly learning how to develop those mechanics into effective actions, than it is about which shapes we use to get there. Simultaneous attack and defense, along with attacking instinctively the instant there is a gap in the opponent's defense, are core Wing Chun fundamentals that serve to build these skills through the system’s mechanics.

Wong Shun Leung, for example, taught that his method was simply about developing the punch. More specifically firing directly with the vertical punch, which he believed required unique mechanics. Everything else is just a consequence of putting all of the VT mechanics into action.


Lin Siu Daai Da ( simultaneous attack and defense ) is a core concept that starts from day one, it is absolutely not rare in the Wing Chun system.

ok...

i think our problem is that we are communicating and im exposing you to parts of the system you arent ready 4.
the content the youtube creator who goes by the psuedonym sifu adam willis puts out is foundational.
it has my words from grade school (sk-8)...im 35 now

enjoy wc

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can someone explain to me why some movements are repeated in the first form?

Form is like a book that record information.

Book 1: "This is a book."
Book 2: "This is a book. This is a book."

Book 2 doesn't contain any more information than book 1 does.

There is a good reason that the 108 moves Taiji form has been condensed down to 48 moves, or even 24 moves Taiji form. The purpose is to remove the redundancy.

On my computer, I find out that I have multiple copies of the same file. To keep 5 copies of a.mp4 only waste my computer disk space. It adds no additional value.

Going through elementary school 5 times won't earn you a PhD degree.

 

[OffendedOnyx]

Form is like a book that record information.

Book 1: "This is a book."
Book 2: "This is a book. This is a book."

Book 2 doesn't contain any more information than book 1 does.

There is a good reason that the 108 moves Taiji form has been condensed down to 48 moves, or even 24 moves Taiji form. The purpose is to remove the redundancy.

On my computer, I find out that I have multiple copies of the same file. To keep 5 copies of a.mp4 only waste my computer disk space. It adds no additional value.

Going through elementary school 5 times won't earn you a PhD degree.

I agree.

I think it one point I had memorized up to 10 unarmed Wing Chun forms
Including 3 Chi forms for Chi Gerk...

I know different lineages have different curriculums...so a PHD in this is is a Grade 6 in that...it all makes sense to someone.
I just stopped caring in the end...I had what I wanted...a way to defend my life and the lives of those I love and care for should the need arise.

Its sad really...I had a similar experience with Modern Arnis...memorize the curriculum but could not form a relationship to save my own life.
Its like my money wasnt green or something.

In the end I ended up studying martial arts from my own culture and thats what I will pass on. Never in a million years would I let people from other traditional martial arts near the next generation of my mentality

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think it one point I had memorized up to 10 unarmed Wing Chun forms

Instead of collecting many forms, I prefer to build many toolboxs.

For example, toolbox for

1. punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
2. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, ...
3. lock - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, leg lift, ...
5. principle - cover hand, arm drag, arm guide, switch hands, tuck arm, leading arm jam back arm, ...
6. strategy - centerline theory, protect center from outside in, attack one leg than attack the other leg, use pull to set up push, change linear into circular, ...
7. ...

 

[OffendedOnyx]

Let's compare the following 2 different strategies.

1. You block/deflect your opponent's punch and punch back at the same time.
2. You throw a punch, your opponent responds to it. You then punch through the opening that you have just created.

By using strategy

- 1, since you extend both hands at the same time, you are not rotating your body, your punching power may not be the maximum.
- 2, you can use your 1st punch as "compress", use your 2nd punch as "release". Since you can add body rotation into your 2nd punch, you can generate maximin punching power.

Example of strategy 1:

Example of strategy 2:

Instead of using to collect many forms, I prefer to build many toolboxs.

For example, toolbox for

1. punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
2. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, ...
3. lock - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, leg lift, ...
5. principle - cover hand, arm drag, arm guide, switch hands, tuck arm, leading arm jam back arm, ...
6. strategy - centerline theory, protect center from outside in, attack one leg than attack the other leg, use pull to set up push, change linear into circular, ...
7. ...

All the power to you....
if it makes sense for you to think of martial arts in that manner do so

You know part of what I enjoyed about Wing Chun as a kid was all mental imagery and theatrics of it...
As a child I love pretending I was a crane and emulating its behaviors in a fight and socially. Snakes as well.
I really enjoyed it...learning about Confuscius, Wu Zetian, and then eventually Shaolin which made me actually leave Wing Chun. I had no idea for years that it was part of Buddhism and it was disturbing to most people I was meeting that I was learning it...thats why I went into JKD...which also turned out to be offensive to everyone...then Modern Arnis.

In the end I think I will just pass on my own culture. It was a lot of dedication of my life that yielded no fruits. I should've used my ambition, focus, and perseverance on math and electronics.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As a child I love pretending I was a crane and emulating its behaviors in a fight and socially.

As a child, I loved to hold a small rock among my 3 finger tips, and hoped one day I could smash that small rock into powder. Also when I was a kid, I loved to get on top of the roof and jumped down. Those were good old days.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

Let's compare the following 2 different strategies.

1. You block/deflect your opponent's punch and punch back at the same time.
2. You throw a punch, your opponent responds to it. You then punch through the opening that you have just created.

By using strategy

- 1, since you extend both hands at the same time, you are not rotating your body, your punching power may not be the maximum.
- 2, you can use your 1st punch as "compress", use your 2nd punch as "release". Since you can add body rotation into your 2nd punch, you can generate maximin punching power.

Example of strategy 1:

Example of strategy 2:

Not only that but the idea in Wing Chun is as Sifu says "think of energy as money in your pocket. At some point you will run out" and "if you must defend yourself, don't get into some drawn out brawl, get in and do what you need to get out asap". You probably will take a punch and if you've never been punched good luck after that. But in Wing Chun the idea is to use the first strike to setup the finish. So while we might deflect a punch with a tan sao while throwing a punch at the same time, the next shot or 2 should ideally go for the throat or somewhere serious (ex. if the head is turned a hard palm heel to the ear, kick to the groin then chop down the back of the neck). The plan is no plan and you react to your assailant. We don't go force VS force. This is critical, learning to relax, stay calm and sense because you may face a dude that is way bigger and stronger and for VS force will get you hurt. THIS is why Sihing take up to an hour to do the first part of SLT.

Then just get away. In the streets it's not about "winning", it's about being able to get away safe. People want to get on top and keep hammering someone but what if they have 3 friends coming? What if it is just 1 friend who comes from behind and nails you in the back of the head with a steel pipe? What if they manage to slip a knife out of their pocket or boot and stick you in the side? Their bloody face might the last one you see. Now tell me if that's cool.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the streets it's not about "winning", it's about being able to get away safe.

In order to get away, you have to knock your opponent out. To deal with 2 standing opponents and 1 knocked out on the ground opponent is easier than to deal with 3 standing opponents.

A compress-release with full body rotation punch has more knockdown powerful than a punch with blocking at the same time (release with no compress - no body rotation).

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

In order to get away, you have to knock your opponent out. To deal with 2 standing opponents and 1 knocked out on the ground opponent is easier than to deal with 3 standing opponents.

A compress-release with full body rotation punch has more knockdown powerful than a punch with blocking at the same time (release with no compress - no body rotation).

That's why I said the first strike is meant to setup the deadly blow. Personally right after the punch i would follow up with a bil sao to the throat (or a neck shovel like Sifu Adam) then palm heel to the ear. That should enough to put him down or in shock and get away without having to deal with any other BS...though not always. Streets is the streets.

 

[nipper219]

Can someone explain to me why some movements are repeated in the first form?

Well all forms have repeated movements, like you do one thing on one side and then the same on the opposite side. It looks clean, and professional. But beyond that, the moves in the forms are basic and repeating them is important to create a muscle memory and natural instinct with the movements. So, basically it's to get those basic core movements down that you need to get higher up in the ranks. Its practice, and practice is repetition. And repetition is key. They are repeated in all the forms, not just the first one.