Redemption – can martial training help?

[Drac]

On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?

True...A copper recently found a page of a manual after a drug sweep..It showed techniques to use against police officers...The POS-gang-banger-wanna-drug-boy is a 2 time loser and told arresting officers it's part of a 200 pg guide...The caps are deplicted as Nazi's and the "homies" as Denzil Washington..

 

[Rook]

I'd say no... unconditionally no. There are other ways for people to become a better person that don't involve making them more dangerous at the same time.

 

[Grenadier]

While martial arts knowledge (or firearms, or knives, etc) can be used to hurt someone else, it's not the knowledge in question that is dangerous. Instead, it's the person. Instead, it's the person who is dangerous.

I do not trust felons (and other serious offenders) to carry firearms (it's illegal), and in the same manner, I do not trust them to not misuse such martial arts knowledge.

As Whitedragon stated, in general, serious offenders are incorrigible, and cannot be redeemed. They become repeat offenders.

Does this mean that all serious offenders are incorrigible? No. Of course not. However, it's still a business, and you have to play the percentages. The last thing *any* instructor and / or school owner wants, is to have his pupil's mug shot plastered on the television.

If such serious offenders really want to learn, then I'll suggest this: take your redemption opportunity seriously (not likely), do many truly outstanding things for the community (not likely), get an expungement for your offenses (even more unlikely), and stay clean. Then I'll maybe re-consider.

 

[charyuop]

That is freaking scary....I have always pictured (not that I want to) someone attacking me in the street as one of those drug addicted or maybe a full of muscle bully. But anyway, "normal" fighting people...I have never thought as someone who can be a highly trained Martial Artists.
Maybe because Martial Arts have in them a certain "code" of conduct or maybe because I have always seen the criminal as poor stupid who dedicate their life just to hurt (physically and not) other people, I have never had the thought of a criminal who actually uses his time to learn and master a Martial Art.

 

[Grenadier]

That is freaking scary....I have always pictured (not that I want to) someone attacking me in the street as one of those drug addicted or maybe a full of muscle bully. But anyway, "normal" fighting people...I have never thought as someone who can be a highly trained Martial Artists.
Maybe because Martial Arts have in them a certain "code" of conduct or maybe because I have always seen the criminal as poor stupid who dedicate their life just to hurt (physically and not) other people, I have never had the thought of a criminal who actually uses his time to learn and master a Martial Art.

In general, people who become good martial artists have the discipline to go through with the training, and have a respect for authority. This is why most martial arts folks tend not to get into trouble. It's also a good reason why martial arts schools are not packed with hoodlums. People who excel in the martial arts generally have better things to do with their time than go around committing heinous deeds.

However, this isn't to say that undisciplined hoodlums can't get anything out of it. There are many techniques that require very little training to apply, just as one would teach a self-defense class to a bunch of people who have never had any training. Even the most undiscplined of thugs are going to be able to pickup a thing or two, and this can make life miserable for the next person they encounter.

Also, there are always going to be exceptions to the "good martial artists = good people" rule. A bad apple is going to turn up here and there, and bring a black eye upon the community.

 

[exile]

I
Also, there are always going to be exceptions to the "good martial artists = good people" rule. A bad apple is going to turn up here and there, and bring a black eye upon the community.

All of this is true, but what to do about it? Your comparison of martial arts training to firearms possession makes perfect sense, but there are laws in place that require gun retailers to get certification that their customers do not have felony records. What is the status of martial arts instructors in this respect---can you demand the same proof from prospective clients that they do not criminal records? Of course you can ask them when they come to you, but that's pointless. If you want real proof at the gate that a potential student has a clean record, what is your legal recourse?

 

[Grenadier]

but there are laws in place that require gun retailers to get certification that their customers do not have felony records.

Not for private sales in most places. That's up to the individual. Let's keep the discussion on topic, though.

What is the status of martial arts instructors in this respect---can you demand the same proof from prospective clients that they do not criminal records? Of course you can ask them when they come to you, but that's pointless. If you want real proof at the gate that a potential student has a clean record, what is your legal recourse?

A good question indeed, although again, this does not really seem relevant to the original poster's topic. To this, I can only answer, that we can only act upon what we already know. The original poster had simply asked if we would give what I assume is a known offender, a chance.

Otherwise, if unknown characters come into your school, then you should give them the benefit of the doubt, as long as they aren't disruptive people.

 

[Drac]

On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?

Here is another aspect...Assisted in the arrest of a 19 yo male that had threatened a female..This male had ingested some type of drug and it took 2 officers to place this POS on the ground and cuff him..Imagine if he had the knowledge of targeting and striking??? That combined with his current state of feeling no pain could have / would have ended badly for all parties...

 

[Robert Lee]

People can change. As most should know M/A does not make you tougher then any good street fighter. It takes dedication in the M/A to get good at it. Sure you want to consider who you train. You will know how a person is changing there out look as you instruct them Viloence is like a drunk. If someone wants to change they try just as a drunk has to change and needs help to do so most often. People sometimes think M/a as some great power fighting machine. Thats is the joke about it. It is far from it if you fail to train hard and progress in it So i would think certion people that have been in trouble sure could improve there life by taking up the M/a and leaving there past behind them. There are several programs where M/A is taught to help people get out of gang life help them improve there self image by becoming a better person. It has worked for many and still will. Chuck Norris started kick drugs out of America helped many young people that were gang members or toubled. Theres other groups that reach out too. On a guard side of looking at prison inmates. remember they are in survival mode while doing the time. They have to live with those other inmates Sure some are just mean people Now those yes they probaly would not be able to reform But they probably would not take up M/A as a training just use a gun or knife. So its a so so idea some can become better people and build strengh not revert back to there past by learning a M/A and otheres well they would not benfit at all. But as said those would not seek the M/A out most often to learn it.

 

[DeLamar.J]

There are circumstances where it is necessary to deny a person training, but I will not deny someone because they have been in prison for something. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and its not right to hold it over their head forever. Also, anyone who trains with me knows how I feel about drugs and violence. Here is my little "misson statement" if you want to call it that.

I expect all those asking to train with us to be responsible, adult members of society. I will not accept students who condone acts which are illegal in this country or the country in which you reside. I do not and will never condone illegal, irresponsible behavior such as using illegal drugs, committing acts of unjustified violence, drinking blood, participating in cannibalism, or anything of that nature. Please note this before asking to train here.

Note how it says I dont want people who condone illegal acts, not people who have and are trying to change.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree with all previous posts about criminals and the such. But, I would say, that IF the individual in question TRULY seeks redemption, The spiritual aspects of the martial arts can help.

 

[whitedragon_48]

drinking blood, participating in cannibalism, or anything of that nature. Please note this before asking to train here.

Dude! Are there many cannibal-vampires in Ohio?:whip1:

 

[DeLamar.J]

Dude! Are there many cannibal-vampires in Ohio?:whip1:

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

 

[whitedragon_48]

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

Ok... :xtrmshock

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I really dont understand how martial arts training is expected to change a persons personality in the first place. A highly disciplined group could instill discipline, but that would just mean a disciplined criminal. The fantasy that 1-2 martial arts classes a week is going to change someones core personality, formed over years and years of experience and environment, is just that. Fantasy.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

I think theoretically it is possible. Not for everybody, but for people who truly want to change, rather than just people who want to learn a style just to get back at the people who crossed them before.
That doesn't mean you should blindly allow any convicted felon to join your class. Some people are a risk and should not have this kind of access to the public.
This is where being an Instructor, rather than just a teacher of technique, comes in. First, an interview with the prospective student is in order, to get a feel for his attitudes and beliefs. Does he really want to change? Or just learn martial arts techniques? If it is decided he can be accepted in class, he needs to be watched closely for a lengthy period of time. How does he carry himself around certain students? Is he quick to anger? Does he go overboard in reacting to being contacted?
I think it is possible, under certain conditions, for people like this to use martial arts, especially traditional martial arts for redemption. However, this person can never be a Master and must be told as such. A Master can never have a criminal past as part of his record.

 

[whitedragon_48]

Well, in smaller schools like my own, I do have the luxury of doing that and I do. I'm afraid that the more comercial chains (McDojos), do not. But then, what harm can it makes? McDojos don't have a reputation for quality training. Yes he'll learn something, but the damage will not be much. Anyways, again, no redemption. He'll walk away a much poorer man thinking he learned something only to get his butt handed to him later on on the streets. Divine justice.inky1:

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

 

[DeLamar.J]

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Just got another bad one for my above post LOL!