Red Flag for School?

[pdg]

Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs? Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large?

She is neither expected to nor tested to.

She's not ranked in an 'art' that contains adults. You're not allowed to partake of the lessons over 7 years old. So, she's not at the same level as that 22 year old, because he couldn't hold the same rank.

It's a different system.

We're not talking piano lessons here, where there is a set expectation for everyone.

Could I, with my (above) tkd blue belt grapple up with a BJJ blue (or lower) belt? Not likely.

Could a BJJ black belt outkick me? Not likely.

So, why should my 6 year old holding a black belt in it's own style ever be compared to any other practitioner of any other system at all?

Why should her holding a black belt reflect poorly on tkd, or BJJ, or knitting?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm confused...

Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.

And someone mentions kid black belts, there's no shortage of people saying it's not right, shouldn't happen, sign of bad school, a child can't possibly be capable of earning a real BB.



Then what happens?

Someone mentions rank.

Rank means nothing, train for you not a bit of cloth, a belt is for holding your trousers up - and so on and so forth.



So really people, which is it?

Either a rank is a valid way of measuring ability and it's not a good thing when it gets misused and awarded to the undeserving

OR

rank is meaningless, in which case who cares if a 7 year old with 19 stripes on their black belt can't kick above the knee.



So there you go, challenge for the day.

Make up your mind.

Yes.

Is that clearer?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure still doesn't mean they're any good

Agreed. Black belt rank never necessarily means that, as a general concept.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let's not pretend. you don't actually have an opinion of your own on this. Let's be honest the only reason your so defensive is because your kid got one that's literally the only reason you're defending it. I'm not trying to be rude just stating a fact.

There's one big reason for kid black belts...money...it's as simple as that. Parents like going around saying their little Timmy is a black belt when bragging how great their kid is. Instructors should just be honest about it. I've spoken to plenty of instructors about it and they admit it. It's to keep the classes busy and encourage the others not because of the actual skill. I've been in martial arts for over 40 years and never heard any instructor say they genuinely believe a kid under 18 deserves a black belt

I can't agree with this, HH. As I said in my earlier post (which is later than your post, confusingly), something has to be the "top rank" for kids. Why does it matter so much to us if that rank uses a black belt? Within the NGAA, they progress kids through "youth" ranks (yellow, blue, green) then to "adult" ranks (yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, black). It's pretty much impossible for a kid to get to purple (only possible within the adult curriculum) and impossible to get black (only eligible at age 16). But what would really be different if they had decided to use yellow, purple, black as the rank colors for youth? I mean, other than our reaction to that third rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it

I know some adults who have tempers, too. If they learn to control ("hide") them, should they also not be ever eligible for BB?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So maybe there's an age limit where rank becomes meaningless?

Maybe it only matters if you're under 18, or you're a woman, or you only have one arm...

Wait, I have one arm...oh, wait, there's another one on the other side. My rank is safe.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it

This is the kind of solution I come back to when I consider it (and for all the same reasons you do - including the personal issues). Of course, it's as hypothetical for me as for you, since I don't teach kids.

 

[mrt2]

I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves. By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in. I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers. Treat the rank as a provisional black belt. Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!

Like I said, my teacher is good, you can tell he cares about his school and loves teaching. I defiantly learn allot and love going! I love how I get to learn both Teakwondo and Hapkido together! I choose Hapkido for the piratically in a real fight situation but I love the kicks of the other.
Thanks everyone! Next I'll have to ask a question about my exercise regime for tanning.

Just to clarify the range I've seen in how black belt ranks are used (and I assume there are extremes beyond my experience). I've seen a Kuk Sool Won (I think I spelled that right) school where BB was achievable in 1 1/2 to 2 years. It was a level of beginning competence, and mostly indicated the person had a foundation. In my primary art, average time to BB is a bit over 7 years (it took me more than 12), and other styles take significantly longer. I recall one style where the absolute minimum: testing once a year, and 7 ranks to black, so if you tested and passed every single year, you could get it in 7 - average was somewhere in the 10-12 year range. In Japan, apparently it's more commonly given the meaning of "starting competence" than "expertise".

So BB doesn't mean just one thing, if you look across the world of martial arts that award that rank. Even within a single art, different groups (and independent programs) may have significantly different standards for different ranks, which might or might not change what BB rank means. As an example, it takes much longer to get to the first colored belt in my curriculum than my instructor's (8-12 months, versus a few weeks), but that's only because I cram a lot more requirements into that first rank. By BB, there's likely less difference (though still some - from me BB doesn't confer teaching certification), but it still won't be identical because I have a different curriculum and set of requirements. If you evaluated my BBs (had I any currently) on his standards, they wouldn't pass his tests. Nor would his pass my test.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves. By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in. I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers. Treat the rank as a provisional black belt. Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.

I don't really see a reason kids' ranks can't be wholly separate (rather than just the terminal rank). Give me a young kid to train, and I could award a series of belts up to "youth black" (for differentiation, I could use the belts that have the white horizontal band). Then, when they reach the age to enter the adult curriculum (let's say they're allowed to start at age 14), they'd keep their current youth rank (whatever it is, up to and including that black belt with white band) until they were ready to test for adult yellow. It shouldn't take long, as they'd have already learned a bunch of the material along the way, and would simply have to test to that level. They might even know enough to test immediate for yellow or even higher. I'd let them test progressively through all the ranks until they hit one they can't pass (at the adult level), then that's where they'd stop to train until they were ready to test. I'd do the same for an adult entering my curriculum from another NGA curriculum.

 

[CB Jones]

IMO, the problem with 6 year old black belts is this. We are talking about a martial art here. Which implies not just a competency in curiculum, but also a proficiency in combat as well as a certain athleticism and power. Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs? Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large? I dare say the answer is, probably not, though I hear that there are 7 year old Muy Thai fighters in Thailand who are pretty bad ***, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black belt?

As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt? If not, is your ceiling brown belt?

 

[CB Jones]

This is the kind of solution I come back to when I consider it (and for all the same reasons you do - including the personal issues). Of course, it's as hypothetical for me as for you, since I don't teach kids.

To me...there is no conundrum. You set a standard....if someone achieves that standard, they earn that rank.

 

[mrt2]

So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black belt?

As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt? If not, is your ceiling brown belt?

Actually, if I have a problem as someone over 50, it won't be power, but rather speed and athleticism. I have power, but I am slow, and I cannot jump as high or kick as high as a 22 year old. If they told me that because of my age and limitations with high kicks, or I couldn't hold my own in sparring with younger folks of the same rank, my ceiling was brown belt, I suppose I would have to live with that.

 

[CB Jones]

Actually, if I have a problem as someone over 50, it won't be power, but rather speed and athleticism. I have power, but I am slow, and I cannot jump as high or kick as high as a 22 year old. If they told me that because of my age and limitations with high kicks, or I couldn't hold my own in sparring with younger folks of the same rank, my ceiling was brown belt, I suppose I would have to live with that.

Ok...because that is your school's standard.

But let's say your school decides you do meet their standard and promotes you.....are you then a black belt?

If someone from a different unrelated school decides you do not meet their standards...are you still a black belt?

 

[mrt2]

Ok...because that is your school's standard.

But let's say your school decides you do meet their standard and promotes you.....are you then a black belt?

If someone from a different unrelated school decides you do not meet their standards...are you still a black belt?

That is an interesting question, but if I am a head instructor from a MA school and a student shows up with a black belt, but obviously doesn't meet my requirements, then I suppose not. When I showed up at my current school and told my instructor my former rank in my former school, he told me I still needed to start as a white belt.

 

[CB Jones]

That is an interesting question, but if I am a head instructor from a MA school and a student shows up with a black belt, but obviously doesn't meet my requirements, then I suppose not.

If you are a black belt in judo and go to a TKD school....You are still a black belt in Judo. The hard work and the accomplishment of meeting that standard is not erased just because you become a white belt in TKD.

The black belt is not a universal rank among all the arts, styles, and schools. It is specific to the school that awarded it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black belt?

As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt? If not, is your ceiling brown belt?

This is a discussion I've been having (mostly with myself) lately. How to handle inherent differences. I'd expect a bit more from a youngish, strong, tall guy than an older, weaker, lighter, shorter guy. Early on in my curriculum, I have some very rudimentary "fitness" requirements, just to make sure folks have some basic needs met before they progress. One of them is 10 Turkish get-ups. I want it to be with weight, but haven't yet found the right formula for how much, which probably needs to be based on % of bodyweight, and probably differs by gender.

If I did breaking, I'd want to have a different standard for a 6'2" 30-year-old than a 5'1" 50-year-old. I don't want the first person to have it too easy, nor to make it excessively challenging for the second. I'm not sure how I'd manage that, but it's what I'd want.

 

[CB Jones]

When I showed up at my current school and told my instructor my former rank in my former school, he told me I still needed to start as a white belt.

He didn't accept your rank within his system.....that does not mean you did not earn the rank from your former school...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me...there is no conundrum. You set a standard....if someone achieves that standard, they earn that rank.

That seems straightforward, but is it? If an adult has to spar adults, what do you do when the adult is the size of a child (big child, small adult)? It's not a conundrum, but it's not as straightforward to me as simply letting children spar children and keeping the other conditions the same. I'm not saying that's not a solid solution, just that I see complications in any solution. Given those complications, one (perhaps easier though not necessarily better) answer is to simply not award the same rank. Of course, I'd also expect not to have to complete the same specific requirements.

 

[CB Jones]

That seems straightforward, but is it?

Yes.

The standard is set for youth blackbelt. You test and if you meet that standard....you are awarded a youth blackbelt. You rank above Brown but below Adult Black Belt 1st Dan but you are still recognized by the organization as a black belt.


Let me add I could see the conundrum of creating the standards...but once they are set it should be straightforward.