Red Flag for School?

[CB Jones]

He sounds like the exception, not the rule.

I don't think so. Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.

IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.

The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions. He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again. One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.

 

[Headhunter]

I don't think so. Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.

IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.

The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions. He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again. One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.

And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it

 

[CB Jones]

Let's not pretend. you don't actually have an opinion of your own on this. Let's be honest the only reason your so defensive is because your kid got one that's literally the only reason you're defending it. I'm not trying to be rude just stating a fact.

Sure I admit my own bias. But again I do think that if you set forth a standard...then stick to that standard and whoever achieves that standard has earned that rank.. And its silly to worry about the rankings of something that you are not even a part of.

 

[pdg]

Rank isn't important for training but it's still wrong for kids to be going round wearing black belts claiming they're experts because like it or not belts are important to some people and whenever you mention martial arts to someone first thing they ask is what belt are you...and then outsiders come see these kids who look like trash wearing black belts and then people think that the style is rubbish because of these kids and ruins the reputation of traditional styles

So basically you're saying that rank is absolutely meaningless.

Except for when it means something, like it's on anyone but you.


Awesome, thanks for clearing that up...

 

[dvcochran]

I don't think so. Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.

IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.

The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions. He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again. One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.

Very good Instructor.

 

[JR 137]

I'm confused...

Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.

And someone mentions kid black belts, there's no shortage of people saying it's not right, shouldn't happen, sign of bad school, a child can't possibly be capable of earning a real BB.



Then what happens?

Someone mentions rank.

Rank means nothing, train for you not a bit of cloth, a belt is for holding your trousers up - and so on and so forth.



So really people, which is it?

Either a rank is a valid way of measuring ability and it's not a good thing when it gets misused and awarded to the undeserving

OR

rank is meaningless, in which case who cares if a 7 year old with 19 stripes on their black belt can't kick above the knee.



So there you go, challenge for the day.

Make up your mind.

Simple - rank isn’t EVERYTHING, but it is SOMETHING.

And no one in this thread said to leave the school because there’s undeserving child black belts. Everyone who addressed the OP said child black belts aren’t a rare thing and that she should focus on the quality of her training. If her training is good, then stay, regardless of what the kids are doing.

 

[pdg]

And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....

So maybe there's an age limit where rank becomes meaningless?

Maybe it only matters if you're under 18, or you're a woman, or you only have one arm...

 

[pdg]

Simple - rank isn’t EVERYTHING, but it is SOMETHING.

And no one in this thread said to leave the school because there’s undeserving child black belts. Everyone who addressed the OP said child black belts aren’t a rare thing and that she should focus on the quality of her training. If her training is good, then stay, regardless of what the kids are doing.

I wasn't just on about this particular thread - more like across the forum.

If you can find anything like consistency I'll award you a cookie.

 

[JR 137]

This is where JR 137 and I respectfully disagree.

And I admit that my opinion has a large bias due to my son.

But with that I use my son (13 years old) as an example....he started karate when he turned 4 years old...he was promoted to youth blackbelt at age 10. He is naturally athletic, competitive and a hard worker. He is at the dojo 4-5 nights a week for 3 hours per night plus training at home. He tested for blackbelt along with other adults and was required to do everything the adults did. The only thing different was that during the continuous free sparing portions of the test he was allowed to spar against other youth.

He met the standards required to earn his blackbelt and all the blackbelts in that lineage at the test agreed and promoted him.

Your kid is an exception and certainly not the norm. Your kid’s dojo may also truly be the exception. And there’s certainly no shortage of adults out there who have an inflated rank too.

I haven’t seen any schools that have the exact same syllabus for kids and adults. I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t seen it. Yours is the second one I’ve heard of. The other one I’ve heard of was an Isshin Ryu school where the 12 year old student took the same test along with the adults and had to spar with the adults and meet the same standards as them.

We’ve had a very small number of junior black belts in the 2 dojos I’ve been a part of. I can honestly say they all worked hard and could easily hold their own against kids their age and then some in an actual fight. I had no problem with them earning that rank. But I honestly felt like they should’ve had a distinct colored belt. Again, that’s my personal issue that I may need to work on

My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it

 

[Deafdude#5]

Bottom line....they the OP, stay in the school & observe what is there. Keep learning the material being taught but be intelligent about it. Do some studying on your own time & compare what you find with what you are learning.

As for the other stuff...take it or leave it. You are not really in a position to affect the instructor’s decisions.
Everyone has an opinion about it. Kids are kids...temperamental as they develop into maturity. Some adults never reach that goal & still have ego issues.

Best & good luck!

 

[CB Jones]

My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it

And they have a different belt. Youth belt is brown with a large black stripe in the center and the ends of the belt are black. In the hierarchy, they outrank adult brown belts but are below adult 1st Dan. But they are considered Black Belts and they are recorded in the lineage of black belts.

The style/lineage started in the 50's. It has grown to around 10-11 different dojos. Jacob was the 239th Black belt of the style/lineage.

 

[Headhunter]

So basically you're saying that rank is absolutely meaningless.

Except for when it means something, like it's on anyone but you.


Awesome, thanks for clearing that up...

Having a bit of trouble reading are we?

Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything.

It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor

 

[CB Jones]

Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor

But that is a problem of lack of standards regardless of age.

 

[pdg]

Having a bit of trouble reading are we?

Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything.

It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor

But do you really fail to see the issue here?

On one hand, you say it means nothing to (some) practitioners so what they wear should have no bearing on you.

On another hand, every practitioner represents their art and school, so they should deserve their belt (which doesn't matter to them) in case an outsider sees them.

On yet another hand, you say kids shouldn't have black belts, but then you (and others) say that belts are meaningless, or only mean anything within the school. So where's the issue with say my 6 year old daughter having her black belt? She fully met the requirements of the dedicated curriculum that's unrelated to any other system. It's surely a valid belt, that doesn't matter, except you'd say she shouldn't have it because child black belt...

Then another hand (mutants ahoy) - brown belt is a mid level in some systems, high in others. Black is a novice grade in some, the pinnacle in others. So it doesn't matter, but it does matter, and to an outsider the only reason they judge on brown or black is because they've been told to.

Red belt too - that was the first belt after white I got in kickboxing, the lowest tested grade - but it's just below black in tkd. There are 3 brown grades in kbx, and no brown whatsoever in tkd.

So again, how can you say belts mean nothing and yet say that some people (or kids) don't deserve what they're given/sold?

While there's no consistency in grade expectations across schools/arts I really don't think you (or anyone else) have any place at all to say whether something is or isn't something...

 

[dvcochran]

Having a bit of trouble reading are we?

Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything.

It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor

You are encroaching on where I have a problem with some who have started their own style or school. They get their feelings hurt by the one instructor they have ever had experience with and start their own thing with poor knowledge or structure. All of the sudden you have a poor quality, very narrow minded group of students and eventually black belts.

 

[mrt2]

No...it was the full curriculum. All beginners train together regardless of age and you progress at your own rate. There are no kids programs.

At age 9 he was teaching forms to adult beginners.

Training 3 hours a night at age 4? Really? It sounds hard to believe.

Your kid is an exception and certainly not the norm. Your kid’s dojo may also truly be the exception. And there’s certainly no shortage of adults out there who have an inflated rank too.

I haven’t seen any schools that have the exact same syllabus for kids and adults. I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t seen it. Yours is the second one I’ve heard of. The other one I’ve heard of was an Isshin Ryu school where the 12 year old student took the same test along with the adults and had to spar with the adults and meet the same standards as them.

We’ve had a very small number of junior black belts in the 2 dojos I’ve been a part of. I can honestly say they all worked hard and could easily hold their own against kids their age and then some in an actual fight. I had no problem with them earning that rank. But I honestly felt like they should’ve had a distinct colored belt. Again, that’s my personal issue that I may need to work on

My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it

OK, this is what I observe so far from my TKD school. If by curriculum, you mean basic knowledge of basics, forms, sparring combos, and 1 steps, then yes, the children are supposed to demonstrate the same knowledge as adults. But on breaks, they don't have to break the same boards I had to break to advance. I saw this with my own eyes. They took the boards from two different boxes. The adults and teenagers got the standard boards. The kids ages 12 and under got really thin boards that break with minimal power. Second, in sparring, they don't really ask children to hold their own against adults. (almost never. One time an assistant instructor had me spar against a child, but he came up to me and told me this was NO CONTACT. sparring, as if I needed to be told not to hit a child.

 

[Superperson]

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!

Like I said, my teacher is good, you can tell he cares about his school and loves teaching. I defiantly learn allot and love going! I love how I get to learn both Teakwondo and Hapkido together! I choose Hapkido for the piratically in a real fight situation but I love the kicks of the other.
Thanks everyone! Next I'll have to ask a question about my exercise regime for tanning.

 

[mrt2]

But do you really fail to see the issue here?

On one hand, you say it means nothing to (some) practitioners so what they wear should have no bearing on you.

On another hand, every practitioner represents their art and school, so they should deserve their belt (which doesn't matter to them) in case an outsider sees them.

On yet another hand, you say kids shouldn't have black belts, but then you (and others) say that belts are meaningless, or only mean anything within the school. So where's the issue with say my 6 year old daughter having her black belt? She fully met the requirements of the dedicated curriculum that's unrelated to any other system. It's surely a valid belt, that doesn't matter, except you'd say she shouldn't have it because child black belt...

...

I think most people here agree belts mean more than nothing, but they aren't everything.

IMO, the problem with 6 year old black belts is this. We are talking about a martial art here. Which implies not just a competency in curiculum, but also a proficiency in combat as well as a certain athleticism and power. Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs? Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large? I dare say the answer is, probably not, though I hear that there are 7 year old Muy Thai fighters in Thailand who are pretty bad ***, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[pdg]

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!

Like I said, my teacher is good, you can tell he cares about his school and loves teaching. I defiantly learn allot and love going! I love how I get to learn both Teakwondo and Hapkido together! I choose Hapkido for the piratically in a real fight situation but I love the kicks of the other.
Thanks everyone! Next I'll have to ask a question about my exercise regime for tanning.

If you're enjoying it and getting what you want, it matters not what I or anyone else thinks in reality.

There are students at the school I go to who could very well be classified as mcstudents - sloppy technique, lack of knowledge, higher grade than me. So what?

I'm happy with what I get, I always aim to surpass what I thought I was capable of - my belt means something to me but someone else's means nowt to me.

I truly think that while some people put all the responsibility on the instructor, or the school, or the system they're incorrect. Everything is far more about the student.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum and I have a question.

I'm currently taking Hapkido with a little Taekwondo mixed in. (My school has you learn both if you take Hapkido.) I'm very new to this style and new to my current school. I want to start by saying I think my teacher is great, or he seems to be that way with my little experience, and I'm having allot of fun but..and here is where my question comes into place.
I have noticed that their are a few children, like 6 or so that have black belts. At first I was shocked and thought they must be pretty good if these kids that are 13 or less have obtained that. During my last class I walked into a student who was maybe 12 or 13 who had just gotten his 2nd Degree black belt. I was skeptical, but given my lack of understanding I tried to think little of it, until later in that class the teacher asked this same student to preform a couple of roundhouse kicks. The student had terrible form and missed two of his targets! Also another student who was a red belt said she had gotten that within a year...
After seeing these instances it made me worried that I might be going to whats called a Mcdojo.
What are your thoughts?

I haven't read the other responses yet, so I'm probably repeating what others have said. I'll preface all of this by saying two things: ranks only mean what those involved agree they mean, and I don't really like kids' black belt ranks (irrationally and entirely without a reason I can explain and justify). So I'll be arguing both sides - everyone else can sit down for a while and watch me duke it out with myself.

Would it mean anything different to you if those belts were a different color? If those young'uns were wearing mauve or chartreuse belts (very character-building, chartreuse!), would you see the situation differently? In many cases, instructors (and organizations) simply use the color black to mean "highest ranks available), so a kid's black belt only means they've reached the highest set of ranks available for kids. So, since there has to be some "highest rank" for kids (assuming we teach kids), we have to have something to use to designate it, and black works as well as anything.

On the other hand, especially in the US (can't speak for Europe, but I don't think it's commonly the same in Asia), we've lent a certain status to the color black. To us, it tends to imply expertise, rather than just rank. So, as you did, many people would expect a child with a black belt is pretty badass to manage that rank so young. And the reality is, they're probably not very badass, at all. That cheapens the feel of what black belt is for those working toward the adult rank.

On yet another hand, that last point might actually be useful. Maybe the adults, getting used to "black belt" just being a rank, rather than a semi-mystical conferment, will put more importance upon what it takes to earn a rank, rather than the rank, itself.

Okay, I think I'm done arguing.
No I'm not.
Oh, do shut up.