Red Flag for School?

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven't fully read through the responses, so this may have already been said.

I don't see why one should adjust for size/age/weight. This is comign from someone who is 5'6 and between 130-140 pounds (much less than most 'fighters'). IMO, if a black belt is expected to be able to punch with X force, and I am unable to do that because I weigh less than most people, I shouldn't be awarded that rank. An old sensei of mine told me "I dont have any child black belts. I don't have any issue with that idea, but I expect a child black belt to be better at sparring than an adult brown belt. If he's not, then he's missing something, and hasn't yet earned his black belt." I don't expect to be treated differently because of my weight, most female martial artists that I know don't expect to be treated differently because of their gender, and children shouldn't be treated differently for the same reason. Doing otherwise is an unfair bias against that person (by not respecting them) and against others (by expecting more of them.

Regarding your statement about "If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing?" If a requirement for me was a kumite, and someone could not participate because of their size (again, I am 5'6-5/7 and 130-140 pounds, very short and skinny for a martial artist), I would walk out on that test, and lose respect for the tester. If the system requires me to be able to hold my own with someone of a certain skill level, I God Damn better be able to hold my own with that individual, and create strategy on the fly to handle their advantages, or else I do not deserve to be the same rank as them.

And that’s mostly my view, but I recognize that this means some people will need less skill to meet a given requirement. I’ve also been looking at requirements to determine which should be a test for skill level or relative fitness, to make sure that’s what I’m really testing for. So, for sparring, it’s a general (not relative) requirement, though I’d likely exclude extreme examples (speaking here of the sparring partners used). For techniques, I’m looking for technical skill level, so I need to use an appropriate partner for the test. And a requirement for 10 Turkish get-ups with weight should absolutely be relative to the individual.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then she shouldn't have the same rank as you. If she's not able to output the minimum power required, why should she have that rank?
Or, if the issue is technique, then the amount that she's able to output should be enough for you to also achieve that rank. By separating it, it's ageism, sexism, and weightism.

Edit to add something: I also would personally find it offensive. As I mentioned in my last post, I am particularly small in most ways. I also trained with an amateur sumo wrestler in an old dojo (so much bigger than me) and reached black belt before him. If someone told me that I did not have to do as much as others because of that, I would be offended by that, and put in an active effort to reach their requirements. If I knew those requirements varied, or found out afterwards, I would not accept the belt, until I reached the requirements that the largest individual had to reach. And I would be annoyed, angry, and upset at my sensei for suggesting that was not necessary. If I was given the black belt anyway, I would not be able to look at my fellow black belts in the eye, at shame that I was pretending to be one of them, or look at the colored belts, knowing that some of them could accomplish what I did, but that would not count for them as a black belt requriement.

But is it a test for power output or technical skill? Those are different aims.

 

[pdg]

So how's this then - look at it from the larger stronger person's point of view (I'm not counting myself as one of these, at 5'11" and 150-160lbs I'm not exactly huge).

They go to test, and they only have to do what the 5ft nothing slip can do.

Have they been tested to the full extent of their capabilities?

Would they feel like the test wasn't as hard as it should be?


While you (@kempodisciple ) might say you'd feel like you haven't performed to the same level as they're expected to, why restrict them to your capabilities?

It goes both ways, there's stuff they can do that you're just not physically capable of doing, and I bet there's stuff you can do that they can only dream of.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So how's this then - look at it from the larger stronger person's point of view (I'm not counting myself as one of these, at 5'11" and 150-160lbs I'm not exactly huge).

They go to test, and they only have to do what the 5ft nothing slip can do.

Have they been tested to the full extent of their capabilities?

Would they feel like the test wasn't as hard as it should be?


While you (@kempodisciple ) might say you'd feel like you haven't performed to the same level as they're expected to, why restrict them to your capabilities?

It goes both ways, there's stuff they can do that you're just not physically capable of doing, and I bet there's stuff you can do that they can only dream of.

I haven't thought to flip it around like that. My viewpoint is generally that the requirements should be set to what is appropriate for the (taller stronger etc.) People, and I have to work harder to reach theyre goal. In the way that when i was younger i had to work a lot harder at getting a basketball into the hoop because i was shorter. But now that you mention it, I can absolutely see schools lowering the bar to make it easier for the smaller people, which would take something away from the larger ones.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Laziness moment and a TL;DR moment, has the question what taekwondo style been asked? (and what Hapikdo style by extension?)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven't thought to flip it around like that. My viewpoint is generally that the requirements should be set to what is appropriate for the (taller stronger etc.) People, and I have to work harder to reach theyre goal. In the way that when i was younger i had to work a lot harder at getting a basketball into the hoop because i was shorter. But now that you mention it, I can absolutely see schools lowering the bar to make it easier for the smaller people, which would take something away from the larger ones.

Maybe it’s my grappling background that has me seeing it differently. Doing a proper hip throw is very different if the person is much taller or much shorter than you. If I used an average person, it would be unnecessarily easy for quite short people and unnecessarily hard for quite tall people. The better generalized test is for each to use someone reasonably close to their own height. That assumes the purpose of the test is to make sure they can do a proper hip throw.

 

[JR 137]

Maybe it’s my grappling background that has me seeing it differently. Doing a proper hip throw is very different if the person is much taller or much shorter than you. If I used an average person, it would be unnecessarily easy for quite short people and unnecessarily hard for quite tall people. The better generalized test is for each to use someone reasonably close to their own height. That assumes the purpose of the test is to make sure they can do a proper hip throw.

How about making sure they can do a proper hip throw on a variety of people. I’m about average height at 5’9, right? If I’m being test on how well I know and can execute a hip throw, shouldn’t I have to show I can use it on people reasonably taller and shorter than me? I don’t mean against André the Giant and Webster, but within reason; maybe like 5’4 - 6’4?

 

[Superperson]

Last night I found out how they determine when your ready to rank up or change belts.
So what they do is a few mini tests on things like kicking, forms board breaks ext. If you pass the kicking test you get a strip of red tape on your belt. When you have passed all of the other tests and have the tape for each then you can do the test to see if you can rank up.
Just wanted to pass this along as new information!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How about making sure they can do a proper hip throw on a variety of people. I’m about average height at 5’9, right? If I’m being test on how well I know and can execute a hip throw, shouldn’t I have to show I can use it on people reasonably taller and shorter than me? I don’t mean against André the Giant and Webster, but within reason; maybe like 5’4 - 6’4?

That's a possibility, but it does present an issue. I don't really care if someone 6'3" can do the throw on someone 5'0" tall. I'd consider that a bad choice in most cases. And reversing the positions, the shorter person can make the throw work without being technically adept at it. So, I'd be asking the tall person to do something (in at least some of the circumstances) that is much harder and which I don't advise actually doing. It'd be a different test for the tall person and the short one, even if they throw the same people. And that's without adding the issue of trying to get to that position if the other person is significantly taller and more powerful, or how that tall and powerful person can manage the throw without any real technique (by hauling with their arms) on a tall, skinny person.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Last night I found out how they determine when your ready to rank up or change belts.
So what they do is a few mini tests on things like kicking, forms board breaks ext. If you pass the kicking test you get a strip of red tape on your belt. When you have passed all of the other tests and have the tape for each then you can do the test to see if you can rank up.
Just wanted to pass this along as new information!

Thanks for sharing that. I like the mini-tests, whether they are semi-formal (like you describe) or simply the instructor's evaluation during classes. It helps ensure folks are ready for the test - and that applies whether the test is mostly a verification (my approach) or designed to be a struggle to get to the next level.