SaulGoodman
Green Belt
Very much so, and conceptually much easier to understand. Guys can work pummeling then learn to transition into arm drags/whizzers/shoots from this framework VERY quickly. Just a brilliant, functional sensitivity drill.
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A lot of good points here now. Me personally feel this is a very good reason for cross training. In fact it is not only condoned by our sifu but practically enforced at higher levels.
We expect to master the world of martial arts and yet so many people think they sit on some secret that does not exist elsewhere. Now imagine when learning that the secret techniques are no other than mastering and finally understanding the basic techniques / principles. Now learn those of other arts and find ways it can not improve your art but improve you.
So often we hear martial artists talk about their art being so great, missing the fact that their art is a teaching system, they themselves are the end result. Master the art to become a good teacher, master yourself to become a good martial artist. One is sadly not always equal to the other.
We expect to master the world of martial arts and yet so many people think they sit on some secret that does not exist elsewhere. Now imagine when learning that the secret techniques are no other than mastering and finally understanding the basic techniques / principles. Now learn those of other arts and find ways it can not improve your art but improve you.
So often we hear martial artists talk about their art being so great, missing the fact that their art is a teaching system, they themselves are the end result. Master the art to become a good teacher, master yourself to become a good martial artist. One is sadly not always equal to the other.
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
Being exposed to other arts will make you view Wc in a different light. A good thing.
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
The more I learn grappling the more it helps my Wing chun imo
Pummeling and other styles of grip fighting have a function diametrically opposed to that of chi sau in VT. Chi sau is about training habits for hitting. The pummeling drill is about the importance of inside control and leverage in grappling.
Chi sau teaches the striker elbow usage and structure for unattached hitting. Pummeling teaches the wrestler to seek underhooks and close body contact.
Understanding chi sau in this way..is likely to lead to errors.
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
I thought I'd show ignored content, I wish I hadn't...
So how long have you been studying submission wrestling for? Because your observations on what pummellings purpose is are pretty short sighted. Pummelling dovetails beautifully with chi Sao.
"The pummeling drill is about the importance of inside control and leverage in grappling."
So your chi Sao DOESNT help with this? Now you're just being provocative.
So are you now gonna say wc doesn't work in clinch range? Please...
"Chi sau teaches the striker elbow usage and structure for unattached hitting"
ah, the ol invincible immovable "vt" elbow.
So presumably you don't seek to control the opponent in any way while you are hitting them?
Oops, of course I forgot, your "vt" elbows take care of all that.
There seems to be 2 camps here, the unattached hitters vs the attached hitters. I know through experience that attached hitting is a far safer place to fight from and leads to less trading.
Please, if you wish you hadn't seen a comment from me then just don't respond. Ignoring completely will save you the pain of typing long replies to something you wish you had never set eyes on.
KPM can re-state your post and I will reply to him if he is interested
Sad to see that you are having trouble with the quote function, just like KPM. Thank god the problem doesn't seem to have affected anyone else.
I had no problem reading Saul's post. You are having trouble? So you can't figure what people have written and you can't seem to follow the flow of a discussion. You've studied Wing Chun but don't know what a "bridge" is, and have to have it explained to you multiple times.......Hmmmm......
Very true. I think it has become abundantly clear that both LFJ and Guy view WSLVT as a completely different system than ANY other Wing Chun. They view the forms differently than anyone else, they view Chi Sau differently than anyone else, the view fighting strategy differently from anyone else, heck....my Pin Sun Wing Chun is more similar to standard Ip Man Wing Chun than what they describe! I think that is why we have such a disconnect in so many conversations here. We really should assume they are talking about a completely different system....like talking to Jow Ga Wolf about Jow Ga.....or to Tony Dismukes about BJJ. But likewise, they shouldn't be critical of what others say about Wing Chun, because others will be talking about a completely different system than their WSLVT. So I propose from now on that anytime they write "VT"....see as "TV"....and something completely unrelated to what we do.
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
If I had only done 1 lineage of wing chun his arguments might be more compelling, but having trained in multiple lineages to a reasonably high level and dabbled in many others I have to say that both his and LFJ's views fly in the face of how many lineages see and train WC. Does this mean WSLVT is always right and all of us mere mortals are always wrong? Of course not. Conversely are we always right and are they always wrong? Of course not! But these guys seem to always err on the side of them being way more enlightened than the rest of us.
It just creates animosity and bad feeling rather than a positive enjoyable forum experience. I don't mind conflicting views to my own but not when they are put across in the patronizing, arrogant manner these individuals always seem to do.
Maybe it's all part of the WSLVT training culture?
It just creates animosity and bad feeling rather than a positive enjoyable forum experience. I don't mind conflicting views to my own but not when they are put across in the patronizing, arrogant manner these individuals always seem to do.
Maybe it's all part of the WSLVT training culture?
Oh I see! You just like to complain and be argumentative!
Interesting though that, even after you ask and it IS clarified, you feel the need to keep asking! Must be that argumentative thing again!
Actually, it has affected me too! The multi-quote function doesn't work on my computer at work. And we are not supposed to monkey with the settings ...or even be posting on forums, although everybody does it on their prep times, etc. So I can't make any snarky comments. I think KPM's and Saul's use of italics or bolded type to differentiate between quotes and responses is perfectly adequate.
It was a snarky comment. And funny. Made me laugh, anyway. Carry on.
I don't believe the functions of pummeling and chi-sau are diametrically opposed. I rather see them as distinct, and even, perhaps, complementary. Chi-sau is just a drill after all. I would think that it can profitably be trained one way for the striking range and somewhat differently as you approach the clinch. Then all kinds of wicked fun becomes possible.
Just think about how WSL-VT Sifu Wang Zhi Peng goes from VT chi-sau directly into throws (1:25-1:50 in the following clip):
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