Reasonable vs "Crash Out"

[Wing Woo Gar]

I’m having an Anchorman moment here. 60% of the time it works every time.

But being serious, I’m guessing you mean reacting to road rage is reasonable 100% of the time. If so, one could say the same thing about man eating lions. Reacting to man eating lions is reasonable 100% of the time. But out of how many times? 100% of zero is zero times.

Again, my only point here is I’m skeptical of basing a self defense approach to any kind of odds. That’s a tenuous road to travel and I suspect not grounded in any actual, reliable statistics.

What I’m saying is road rage is an unreasonable way to react to be being cut off or whatever. I’m also saying that reacting to someone else’s road rage behavior is an unreasonable way to behave. I think I was clear, but maybe not.

 

[Steve]

What I’m saying is road rage is an unreasonable way to react to be being cut off or whatever. I’m also saying that reacting to someone else’s road rage behavior is an unreasonable way to behave. I think I was clear, but maybe not.

I think I understand now.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

For what it’s worth, I didn’t think that or get that impression from anyone else.

It’s all good. I did get that clear impression from @Mallic, but I’m not sure why they thought that of me. I’m a long way from being a Cape Buffalo.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think I understand now.

 

[Mallic]

It’s all good. I did get that clear impression from @Mallic, but I’m not sure why they thought that of me. I’m a long way from being a Cape Buffalo.

Because unless someone tries to mess with you and the herd you're otherwise harmless.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Because unless someone tries to mess with you and the herd you're otherwise harmless.

Ok, I guess that’s fair.

 

[HighKick]

I don't know what the stats really look like on a macro level. Anecdotally, based on my experience, the odds are miniscule. Or maybe it's just the way we evaluate situations. For example, what you call "some bonehead on the highway cutting you off" I might just call a lane change. Seattle has more than our share of bad drivers. And yet, I can't recall the last time I was cut off by a bonehead.

The point is, we all play a role in creating situations. Eg. If I don't leave room for folks to change lanes, I'm inviting conflict.

But even then... how often does that escalate to road rage? Certainly not daily or even monthly... some people go their entire lives without being directly impacted by road rage. And even then... how often does road rage escalate to a degree where there is a real chance of harm? Sometimes. But I’d say not 10%.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just not sure I agree that 10% is a reasonable guesstimate. And while if 10% would make it unreasonable to react, it suggests there is a break point where it would become unreasonable. Where is that point?



I’ve never heard due process used in that way before.

Nashville has been dubbed the worst traffic in the country by some 'experts'. It is bad, but I have no real gauge about the rest of the country. To your comment about leaving enough room to let someone merge, if you do that in Nashville, you will end up almost standing still because it will constantly happen. Classic bumper to bumper driving is the only way to navigate Nashville traffic.

Due process applies. There is a very methodical process to follow, mildly different state to state & department to department. The kicker is based on the situation, there may not be enough time to follow any process.

 

[Steve]

Nashville has been dubbed the worst traffic in the country by some 'experts'. It is bad, but I have no real gauge about the rest of the country. To your comment about leaving enough room to let someone merge, if you do that in Nashville, you will end up almost standing still because it will constantly happen. Classic bumper to bumper driving is the only way to navigate Nashville traffic.

Look. Not to play top that story but i commute downtown in Seattle in rush hour several times each week. Seattle is in the top 10 worst traffic in the USA and the top 30 worst in the world. Worse than Nashville. Nothing to brag about, but believe me when i tell you i am very comfortable driving in heavy traffic.

There is a difference between being aggressive and being assertive. You can be chill (I like the term assertively friendly ) and still get where you’re going. Like many things, how it feels and the reality are two different things. Driving aggressively may make up to a 2 or 3 minute difference in my overall drive time over 45 minutes. It’s just not worth it. And to be clear, blocking cars from changing lanes is 100% a type of aggression.

And there’s a self defense lesson in there too. I don’t get angry when I drive. I get to work and home relaxed. I am less likely to be involved in an accident. I’m way less likely to get pulled over. And all it costs me is a few minutes, tops. Frankly, it just gives me a couple more minutes to listen to a podcast or some tunes. I literally don’t mind at all.

Due process applies. There is a very methodical process to follow, mildly different state to state & department to department. The kicker is based on the situation, there may not be enough time to follow any process.

Do you mean due process for you to decide if you’re going to shoot me? I’m not saying you’re wrong. But I’ve never heard anyone use the term in the way I think you are using it. And looking it up to check my understanding of the definition hasn’t changed my mind. maybe I’m just not grokking what you mean.

 

[HighKick]

Look. Not to play top that story but i commute downtown in Seattle in rush hour several times each week. Seattle is in the top 10 worst traffic in the USA and the top 30 worst in the world. Worse than Nashville. Nothing to brag about, but believe me when i tell you i am very comfortable driving in heavy traffic.

There is a difference between being aggressive and being assertive. You can be chill (I like the term assertively friendly ) and still get where you’re going. Like many things, how it feels and the reality are two different things. Driving aggressively may make up to a 2 or 3 minute difference in my overall drive time over 45 minutes. It’s just not worth it. And to be clear, blocking cars from changing lanes is 100% a type of aggression.

And there’s a self defense lesson in there too. I don’t get angry when I drive. I get to work and home relaxed. I am less likely to be involved in an accident. I’m way less likely to get pulled over. And all it costs me is a few minutes, tops. Frankly, it just gives me a couple more minutes to listen to a podcast or some tunes. I literally don’t mind at all.

To be more clear, Nashville ranks 12th worst for congested traffic. I don't know if that is just semantics or not.
My automation business has been in downtown Nashville since 1996 and I made the drive every day until 2001, so not that long in the grand scheme but I have to drive to customer sites all over the southeast, so it balances out for the most part. I got to work very early and always missed the morning rush hour traffic. I would usually hit the afternoon rush.
Again, I cannot speak to how it is daily driving in say Oakland or Miami, but I do know if you drive at the stated distance from the car in front of you that the drivers manual states, cars will just merge in front of you, over and over and over. It is quite futile. And yes, when I was a younger man it was frustrating. Now a day's, I just drive and don't think much about it.
Let's use traffic construction as the example. You are driving, you know about construction ahead from the radio news person so you promptly get in the correct lane, you see the multiple lit signs telling you to merge, and you see the merge cones, You also see several cars making every attempt to get one car ahead by ignoring all the warnings. No, absolutely not will I let those rude, knuckleheads in front of me. I am not be mad but principled. Judge me if you want to.

Do you mean due process for you to decide if you’re going to shoot me? I’m not saying you’re wrong. But I’ve never heard anyone use the term in the way I think you are using it. And looking it up to check my understanding of the definition hasn’t changed my mind. maybe I’m just not grokking what you mean.

Due Process

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To be more clear, Nashville ranks 12th worst for congested traffic. I don't know if that is just semantics or not.
My automation business has been in downtown Nashville since 1996 and I made the drive every day until 2001, so not that long in the grand scheme but I have to drive to customer sites all over the southeast, so it balances out for the most part. I got to work very early and always missed the morning rush hour traffic. I would usually hit the afternoon rush.
Again, I cannot speak to how it is daily driving in say Oakland or Miami, but I do know if you drive at the stated distance from the car in front of you that the drivers manual states, cars will just merge in front of you, over and over and over. It is quite futile. And yes, when I was a younger man it was frustrating. Now a day's, I just drive and don't think much about it.
Let's use traffic construction as the example. You are driving, you know about construction ahead from the radio news person so you promptly get in the correct lane, you see the multiple lit signs telling you to merge, and you see the merge cones, You also see several cars making every attempt to get one car ahead by ignoring all the warnings. No, absolutely not will I let those rude, knuckleheads in front of me. I am not be mad but principled. Judge me if you want to.

Due Process

Wow. Shooting an unarmed teenager in the back of the head for fleeing a simple burglary?! That is, in my opinion, extremely wrong and over the top unnecessary violence. Over 10 bucks and a broken window…

 

[Buka]

Look. Not to play top that story but i commute downtown in Seattle in rush hour several times each week. Seattle is in the top 10 worst traffic in the USA and the top 30 worst in the world. Worse than Nashville. Nothing to brag about, but believe me when i tell you i am very comfortable driving in heavy traffic.

There is a difference between being aggressive and being assertive. You can be chill (I like the term assertively friendly ) and still get where you’re going. Like many things, how it feels and the reality are two different things. Driving aggressively may make up to a 2 or 3 minute difference in my overall drive time over 45 minutes. It’s just not worth it. And to be clear, blocking cars from changing lanes is 100% a type of aggression.

And there’s a self defense lesson in there too. I don’t get angry when I drive. I get to work and home relaxed. I am less likely to be involved in an accident. I’m way less likely to get pulled over. And all it costs me is a few minutes, tops. Frankly, it just gives me a couple more minutes to listen to a podcast or some tunes. I literally don’t mind at all.


Do you mean due process for you to decide if you’re going to shoot me? I’m not saying you’re wrong. But I’ve never heard anyone use the term in the way I think you are using it. And looking it up to check my understanding of the definition hasn’t changed my mind. maybe I’m just not grokking what you mean.

I’m used to Boston and L.A traffic, both of which sometimes make me wish bad things.

 

[Mallic]

Wow. Shooting an unarmed teenager in the back of the head for fleeing a simple burglary?! That is, in my opinion, extremely wrong and over the top unnecessary violence. Over 10 bucks and a broken window…

Stuff like this is why I feel it's so important to ask these questions, cause while others only want to do what's necessary...some people just want an excuse.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Stuff like this is why I feel it's so important to ask these questions, cause while others only want to do what's necessary...some people just want an excuse.

Where did you grow up, if I may ask? Just curious.

 

[Mallic]

Where did you grow up, if I may ask? Just curious.

Illinois. Chicago to be specific.

 

[Steve]

To be more clear, Nashville ranks 12th worst for congested traffic. I don't know if that is just semantics or not.
My automation business has been in downtown Nashville since 1996 and I made the drive every day until 2001, so not that long in the grand scheme but I have to drive to customer sites all over the southeast, so it balances out for the most part. I got to work very early and always missed the morning rush hour traffic. I would usually hit the afternoon rush.
Again, I cannot speak to how it is daily driving in say Oakland or Miami, but I do know if you drive at the stated distance from the car in front of you that the drivers manual states, cars will just merge in front of you, over and over and over. It is quite futile. And yes, when I was a younger man it was frustrating. Now a day's, I just drive and don't think much about it.
Let's use traffic construction as the example. You are driving, you know about construction ahead from the radio news person so you promptly get in the correct lane, you see the multiple lit signs telling you to merge, and you see the merge cones, You also see several cars making every attempt to get one car ahead by ignoring all the warnings. No, absolutely not will I let those rude, knuckleheads in front of me. I am not be mad but principled. Judge me if you want to.

My man. It’s called a zipper merge and it’s actually the law in many places. And when people aren’t selfish about it, it actually helps reduce congestion. Those rude knuckleheads are actually the ones doing it right.

I know I’ll never be able to convince you, but I encourage you to do some reading up on aggressive driving and impact studies on its impact on congestion.

Due Process

Fair enough.

 

[Steve]

I’m used to Boston and L.A traffic, both of which sometimes make me wish bad things.

Traffic only gets to you if you let it. I was actually very impressed at how civil and predictable the drivers in Boston were when I was there. You had to be assertive but if you needed to change a lane, you’d get let in.

Same in Atlanta, though the big problem there is it always seemed like there was a major accident snarling things up. Haven’t done much driving in LA.

Don’t get me wrong. It sucks to be stuck in congestion. I’m just suggesting that being aggressive doesn’t really get you anywhere any faster and only stresses you out. Just put on some good tunes and be friendly.

 

[Hot Lunch]

My man. It’s called a zipper merge and it’s actually the law in many places. And when people aren’t selfish about it, it actually helps reduce congestion. Those rude knuckleheads are actually the ones doing it right.

Zipper merge is only fair when both lanes are equally occupied. But if one lane is empty and you can zoom up to the front... then I agree with HighKick on this. If I did the honorable thing and got into the occupied lane, then my good deed WILL go unpunished.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Zipper merge is only fair when both lanes are equally occupied. But if one lane is empty and you can zoom up to the front... then I agree with HighKick on this. If I did the honorable thing and got into the occupied lane, then my good deed WILL go unpunished.

At that point, the issue is the people who are choosing to go into the busy lane. It's like the people that are waiting on line at a supermarket when there's an open lane - it's not the fault of the people using the open lane that it was open.

 

[Steve]

Zipper merge is only fair when both lanes are equally occupied. But if one lane is empty and you can zoom up to the front... then I agree with HighKick on this. If I did the honorable thing and got into the occupied lane, then my good deed WILL go unpunished.

The one lane is empty because a bunch of dudes who don’t know how to zipper merge actively create a dangerous situation for those who do. This is an example of people literally creating a problem for themselves and others, and then getting salty about it. It’s just bad driving.

Don’t take my word for it. Do some reading. The studies are out there. Zipper merging is safer for everyone, including the construction workers, and it’s more efficient because all available lanes are being used.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Nashville has been dubbed the worst traffic in the country by some 'experts'.

If you look on any cities nextdoor/subreddit/facebook groups, you'll see that claim made. As you've pointed out in different threads, anyone can make statistics say what they want it to say. Based on personal experience, Nashville doesn't hit the top 10. Las Vegas and DC are the absolute worst. Las vegas is full of people who all have different cultures for driving so you never know what anyone's going to do, it's crowded, and if a study was done on the most DUI's I'd expect it comes in the top 5. DC is just horrible - it's literally the only reason I don't live there.

NYC, Boston, Baltimore, Jersey City, San Francisco, Miami, Orlando, and LA are the worst after those two in terms of drivers, though personally I find that it's better than some others since I expect them to be bad. Raleigh, Seattle, Newark, and Atlanta come in the next tier, where not everyone's an aggressive driver, but this means that you can't just assume everyone's aggressive, and in some ways that makes it worse. Nashville, Portland, and Williamsburg follow those up.

I'd bet some of texas should be on that list, but I haven't made my way to texas yet. New Orleans should also be on there, but that's because of the drunk pedestrians, not the drives, so I'm leaving it off. I'm noticing that most of the cities I've listed are coastal cities, but I've been to a decent number of "flyover" states, and they really don't compare. I've also never been to chicago or denver, which should probably be listed here somewhere.


All that said, there are definitely times where waiting 'in line' means you're waiting an extra half hour. These are very specific exits/ramps/turns, where you know that's the case in advance if you know the area. Outside of those, you're really only losing 5 minutes max following general traffic patterns and not being aggressive.