Reasonable vs "Crash Out"

[isshinryuronin]

There is obviously a spectrum of aggressiveness: Argument gotten out of hand > shakedown where the attacker weighs risk/reward > hardened criminal who will do what's needed to get what he wants > nutjob who is just out to hurt you. The first two can potentially be de-escalated, the last two probably not.

This implies there should be a spectrum of "defensive" responses. This is quite difficult. Physically, it requires skilled knowledge to perform a range of techniques as well as how forcefully to apply them. Mentally, how to evaluate the danger level and being able to "throw the switch" to ramp up to the appropriate level of violence required to protect yourself. Self-control under stress is also needed to do all this without under or overreacting.

Good self-defense-based realistic MA training goes a long way to providing this set of skills, IMO. Still, it is not easy to control the situation exactly as you would like. When in doubt I would default to the next higher response level - better safe than sorry. There is a price to pay for being the bad guy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Most of the times I was attacked on a predatory level there were more than one person involved. I would caution against the idea of holding someone on the ground waiting for help. That’s also trapping you in place without a way to defend against a second assault. If you are in the dominant position and the assailant has a partner, this is where you are extremely vulnerable. If I am alone and they want my keys or wallet I throw it on the ground in front of me. If my wife was with me, then they roll the dice with their life. Under no circumstances will I try to detain or control an attacker. You can be stabbed in a hot second, it’s happened to me, twice. You can be shot at by what may appear to be a child, it’s happened to me in broad daylight on a busy street. People will watch you get murdered and not do a damn thing to assist you. People that are not in any way connected to a fight will join in just to do it. I’m not telling anyone what to do in a given situation, each one is different, but I am saying that it’s a poor idea to give an attacker the benefit of the doubt. Either avoid it altogether, give up what they want, or deal with them in the most expedient way possible that removes you from the situation as safely as possible. I don’t believe in the phrase self defense, in my opinion, there is only self offense. There is nothing to be gained by engaging. Remember, your ego dies with you, pride should never enter your mind in these circumstances. I avoid the vast majority of these encounters now that I live rural, am married, in my 50s, and in bed by 9pm 6 nights a week. 6 p postulate, Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

 

[Mallic]

There is obviously a spectrum of aggressiveness: Argument gotten out of hand > shakedown where the attacker weighs risk/reward > hardened criminal who will do what's needed to get what he wants > nutjob who is just out to hurt you. The first two can potentially be de-escalated, the last two probably not.

Agree with all of what you said. Though I'd like to think the majority of self-defense encounters are going to more or less fall under this category. Like most people are going to have SOME kind of sense.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Agree with all of what you said. Though I'd like to think the majority of self-defense encounters are going to more or less fall under this category. Like most people are going to have SOME kind of sense.

If you have time to decide, decide not to do it. You cannot rely on people for anything resembling sense.

 

[Mallic]

If you have time to decide, decide not to do it. You cannot rely on people for anything resembling sense.

Just because someone else chooses to be an animal doesn't mean I have to. Besides are you sure there isn't a certain bias on your part? Like where did you live where you actually got shot by a child? Your experiences have already made it fairly clear you care little for the concept of mercy.

 

[isshinryuronin]

most people are going to have SOME kind of sense.

I agree.

You cannot rely on people for anything resembling sense.

Most of the time (90%) in normal day to day life situations, we CAN as in Mallic's quote above. It's really the only way we can live, even though sometimes we get burned.

BUT, when it comes to our safety/life, or those of loved ones, Wing Woo Gar's statement is the position we must take. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise. A one in ten chance of dying/serious injury is too high odds for me to take.

 

[Mallic]

I agree.

Most of the time (90%) in normal day to day life situations, we CAN as in Mallic's quote above. It's really the only way we can live, even though sometimes we get burned.

BUT, when it comes to our safety/life, or those of loved ones, Wing Woo Gar's statement is the position we must take. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise. A one in ten chance of dying/serious injury is too high odds for me to take.

Maybe my weakness is that I think too much. I'd rather not approach every situation with woo's approach and analyze things to see if that level of force is appropriate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My experience is that everyone has an off ramp unless their goal is "all or nothing".

The defender should only go as far as the attacker's "off ramp". If the defender takes away the attacker's "off ramp" then the risk becomes "all or nothing" Destructive behavior can cause an attacker to not care about their own well being.

The challenge is knowing where that off ramp is and knowing that it exists.

 

[drop bear]

You either close off their windpipe or restrict blood to their brain. Pretty much.

There is a side not to this.

Styles that teach you to control someone even if they are fighting back as hard as they can. And that don't rely on debilitating strikes to do it. Factor this crash out issue in.

While allowing you to still strike people if you are feeling mean.

This is the advantage of realistic feedback vs manufactured feedback.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Someone who does not care about their own life is wildly unpredictable is what I am trying to say.

Let's look at this way. If you are the bad guy and everybody else who live on this planet are all good guys. The world will be a lovely place to live. Will that be nice?

One night I stood against a wall in a dark alley in Rio de Janeiro. I had long hair with leather jacket and blue jean (a long hair China man can be scarry). Everybody all walked on the other side of the street. I then realized that I could be the bad guy too. After that day, I don't assume that everybody all tries to get me. I lived much happily life after that day.

A: Do you teach self-defense?
B: I teach how to let your opponent to defense himself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how do you deal with a person who does not care if they themselves die?

This is why we all need to develop a certain MA skill that we can put our opponent to sleep ASAP.

 

[Mallic]

You either close off their windpipe or restrict blood to their brain. Pretty much.

There is a side not to this.

Styles that teach you to control someone even if they are fighting back as hard as they can. And that don't rely on debilitating strikes to do it. Factor this crash out issue in.

While allowing you to still strike people if you are feeling mean.

This is the advantage of realistic feedback vs manufactured feedback.

I can never take BJJ seriously thanks to guard pull shenanigans.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can never take BJJ seriously thanks to guard pull shenanigans.

That's just high level sport bjj. If you want to beat someone who knows how to fight, learning BJJ is going to either help you win, or prevent them from beating you easily.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can never take BJJ seriously thanks to guard pull shenanigans.

 

[Mallic]

View attachment 31774

...That actually looks clean ngl.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

...That actually looks clean ngl.

I had used exactly the same move on a guy who tried to pull a girl into his car in the street of Hawaii. The guy screamed, "Please don't kill me." I let him go. He took off. Nobody got hurt. We all live happy ever after.

I assume if I throw a punch on his face, the outcome could be difference.

 

[Buka]

Rear naked chokes were made for crashout guys. I’d much rather RNC them than punch them. And I like to punch.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Rear naked chokes were made for crashout guys. I’d much rather RNC them than punch them. And I like to punch.

It is one of the most effective techniques with restraint, put to sleep, or lethal capabilities, plus, low risk of hand injury. Yet, punching seems so much more satisfying.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Just because someone else chooses to be an animal doesn't mean I have to. Besides are you sure there isn't a certain bias on your part? Like where did you live where you actually got shot by a child? Your experiences have already made it fairly clear you care little for the concept of mercy.

Ok, you think I’m an animal. I am biased because of my experiences, true. In the instance you referenced, I was not shot, I was shot at. I lived in South Los Angeles and Long Beach in the 1980s and 90s where I was shot at, stabbed, robbed, etc. I talked about what happened to me, I didn’t talk about not having mercy. I don’t want to injure people, I’m not a criminal or a bully, Im not even a tough guy. Have you had similar experiences? It might give you a bias if you had. For me, it boils down to the circumstances in each situation. I don’t walk around thinking people are out to get me, I’m also not so naive to think that those type of people don’t exist. Like I said, if I have time to think about it, I have time to not do it. Best to avoid conflict anytime you have the option. I have one question though, what kind of animal am I? A turkey? A chicken? A teddy bear? A throbbing python of love? I’ve been called all that already. Be original in your response.

 

[Mallic]

Ok, you think I’m an animal. I am biased because of my experiences, true. In the instance you referenced, I was not shot, I was shot at. I lived in South Los Angeles and Long Beach in the 1980s and 90s where I was shot at, stabbed, robbed, etc. I talked about what happened to me, I didn’t talk about not having mercy. I don’t want to injure people, I’m not a criminal or a bully, Im not even a tough guy. Have you had similar experiences? It might give you a bias if you had. For me, it boils down to the circumstances in each situation. I don’t walk around thinking people are out to get me, I’m also not so naive to think that those type of people don’t exist. Like I said, if I have time to think about it, I have time to not do it. Best to avoid conflict anytime you have the option. I have one question though, what kind of animal am I? A turkey? A chicken? A teddy bear? A throbbing python of love? I’ve been called all that already. Be original in your response.

Hmm perhaps the African cape buffalo? Otherwise known as the widowmaker. Generally harmless as long as you leave it alone, but the second you threaten it's life it has a tendency to take self defence way too far as it's been known to merc adult lions and will actively hunt down humans for revenge.