Reason for all the high kicks and ariel techniques

[Jaeimseu]

Has nothing to do with it. If you can't kick properly, you don't master the basic. Kicking properly entails full extension, not bent legs, when the technique calls for it.



Dirty Dog asked for his name and he got it. Now you complain once he got it that I crossed the line. I also added that this is not unique for my club. I can say whatever I want. I don't think telling the truth is crossing the line.

Would you feel comfortable showing what you have written to your instructor? You are talking about him. Doesn't his opinion matter?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Would you feel comfortable showing what you have written to your instructor? You are talking about him. Doesn't his opinion matter?

You are not allowed to question. I would have done it from day one if I could, and voiced my opinion. Although I am quite certain he wouldn't take it very well when I inform him that most of his black belts don't meet a fairly basic criteria. I don't go to a taekwondo club for philosophical enquiry. Discussions are to be preserved for forums such as these.

 

[TrueJim]

There is no universal standard for black belt. There are some techniques to be demonstrated, and then it's up to the examiner to decide if they have been performed to the best of the candidate's ability.

I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.

If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different definition for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."

Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of proficiency as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.

Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to effort than to proficiency. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.

If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different definition for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."

Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of proficiency as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.

Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to effort than to proficiency. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.

I've never cared for the "can hold your own against x number of attackers" criterion. There are far too many variables out of the student's control, most of which have little to nothing to do with the training received. I much prefer to judge a student on progress and effort. I would only fail a student in extremely rare circumstances, but I also try to avoid testing students who aren't ready.

 

[Gnarlie]

Why assume otherwise? They can certainly jump and run perfectly fine. If such a person has not put in the time required in stretching and practice, he/she does not make the cut in my world. You see, In my world a black belt signifies something.

For all you know they could be suffering with crippling gout or have an unusual bone structure. I am not saying they do, I am saying you don't know their story. Your instructor does.

I can't fully straighten my arms. Not due to lack of stretching, but due to unusual bone structure. It wouldn't matter how much I tried or wished, it is just not something I can do. This makes certain techniques, such as ridge hand strike, very impractical for me. Does this mean I have to give back my black belt?

Black belt signifies something in my world too. We will talk about it more when you have one. It will be difficult for you to earn one without making some significant changes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.

As someone who has sat many math exams I can tell you that you still get marks for understanding the theory even if you get an incorrect answer, that's why you are required to show your working.

 

[RTKDCMB]

related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.

Just because something is an integral part of Tae Kwon Do it does not mean that it has to be a major part.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.

If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different definition for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."

Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of proficiency as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.

Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to effort than to proficiency. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.

I think you understand. There is an objective measure, which for KKW TKD is the 8 Taegeuk forms and basic techniques in the areas the examiner wants to see on the day. On top of that, there is a subjective measure, 'does this person convey the values of TKD in what they are doing'.

For an examiner testing students with whom he or she has regular contact, their journey becomes a part of that last question. The change they have effected in their life becomes a part of the picture. Take a person who started out with extremely weak hips or responds very slowly to stretching, for example. They discussed the problem with the instructor, asked for advice, worked hard and have improved, but still have a problem. They train at every possible opportunity, and sweat and sweat to further improve from that weakness. I could see how an instructor would let them through first dan, knowing that their current training ethic will overcome that weakness with time.

A new yellow belt walking in the door would only see the product of that decision, and not the back story. That yellow belt would judging from a position of ignorance.

I don't hold with the 'hold your own against' measure for black belt, because frankly I believe that is a fantasy. Regular Taekwondo practice is realistically a very far cry from the world of actual, real violence, and actual, real violence is certainly not something that a black belt should be getting involved with. I would be unhappy measuring someone's ability to defend themselves unless I had actually taught them to defend themselves. Defensive ability is a by-product of studying Taekwondo, but it is certainly not the measure of a first dan.

 

[RTKDCMB]

They can't kick with their legs straight. It doesn't take Einstein to see that they are doing it incorrectly. They struggle. I happen to know how it should be done, since I have relatives in both Boxing and Karate at world class levels. I am the son of one of them.

It would help the rest of us to see your black belts in action if you have a video then we could have an objective look at their technique.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because I don't choose where I train based on ethics

I do, that's why I chose a good school. How do you choose where you train?

 

[Dirty Dog]

It would help the rest of us to see your black belts in action if you have a video then we could have an objective look at their technique.

Personally, I'd be more interested in seeing a video of him. I've seen lots of yellow belts who think they've got great kicks. And some of them do, for yellow belts. I have yet to see a yellow belt who didn't need to improve their technique.
But this fellow insists his kicks are already perfect. I'd like to see that.

 

[Gnarlie]

Personally, I'd be more interested in seeing a video of him. I've seen lots of yellow belts who think they've got great kicks. And some of them do, for yellow belts. I have yet to see a yellow belt who didn't need to improve their technique.
But this fellow insists his kicks are already perfect. I'd like to see that.

+1. There are videos online of a master's seminar from this club. I would be interested to know if Laplace's view extends to those higher dan grades, or whether we are only talking about first dans here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you have a link to these videos? I'd like to see them, while we're waiting for our little prodigy to show us his own video.

 

[Gnarlie]

I just google video'd the instructor's name.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I found that and a demo video from 1978 which I think is also from Master Yeo.
Personally, I don't see anything in this video that supports our paragon of perfections claim that the school is a McDojo. The techniques I see here are valid and effective and although they're being performed at practice speed, the execution is appropriate.

 

[Gnarlie]

I found that and a demo video from 1978 which I think is also from Master Yeo.
Personally, I don't see anything in this video that supports our paragon of perfections claim that the school is a McDojo. The techniques I see here are valid and effective and although they're being performed at practice speed, the execution is appropriate.

Yep, all looks fine to me too.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Yep, all looks fine to me too.

Looks fairly typical to me, too. Maybe someone has an exaggerated view of "black belt."

 

[Laplace_demon]

These guys are technically legit black belts. How come none of them are disabled (!) and can kick accurately,. If I didn't know better it seems highly probable, given some of the lame excuses offered here.

 

[Gnarlie]

These guys are technically legit black belts. How come none of them are disabled (!) and can kick accurately,. If I didn't know better it seems highly probable, given some of the lame excuses offered here.

It is not clear what you are saying. Please read what you wrote and restate with correct sentence structure.

 

[Tez3]

You are not allowed to question. I would have done it from day one if I could, and voiced my opinion. Although I am quite certain he wouldn't take it very well when I inform him that most of his black belts don't meet a fairly basic criteria

I imagine that telling the senior instructor that his black belts don't meet that standards expected by a low grade is a very good way to find out what the senior instructors striking standards are. I know what our senior instructor would say and do. I would be getting the ice packs out as soon as the first words started coming out of the low grades mouth.