Realistic Training !!

[bencole]

Ronnin][/B]Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.

But not in the way your phrased it and the context of the way you used in in a conversation. When we are talking about "winning" in the midst of a conversation about sparring/randori it tends to make people think you are talking about defeating the other person. Now it just sounds like you are trying to back track on what you were saying. Please be more careful with the way you phrase things in the future if that is not the case.

Just so you do not think that Don is picking on you, Ronnin, I agree with his reprimand. The idea of "surviving" is *NOT* the way that you used it when you were quoting Takamatsu-sensei.

-ben

 

[makoto-dojo]

This sounds more like scenario training, in which the focus is different, specific to the goals of the participants. Both people have goals that they want to accomplish (i.e win), and actions taken are usually limited depending on those specific goals. Here there are uke and tori. Bad guy and good guy. Usually the good guy is suppose to win, which changes things, even if in a subtle way.

Depends on who is doing the drill. When we do it, both sides want to "win" in the sense of accomplish their goals, either take someone down and "kill" them, or get away to the safe zone. both parties want to "win" (if we want to use that word...)

I dont agree that wanting to win is really a bad thing. Winning means you accomplish your goal...whatever that may be.
I also dont agree that wanting to win makes you an ego maniac. The more seasoned individuals can accept defeat and put it in proper perspective, and dont go wild in attempts to win friendly sparring matches at all costs.

Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective. This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble and look at things more honestly.

Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.

You bring up good points. I think this may be one of those situations where the word being used (winning) is being interpreted in different ways. I understand how you are using it.

Another way to use it, and I think maybe how some are looking at it, is where the person loses site of the ultimate goal of survival. here is an example.

Last Saturday before my morning ninpo class, we had a "jissen-kai" class (drills, randori, attribute training etc...) The guys were given a task, we would start from various scenarios, like for example waiting in line somewhere, sitting on the ground in a park etc. And the other student was to try to accomplish a predetermined goal. Either get their wallet, "beat them up" Attach and then pull out a hidden knife. The good guy had to make it to the tori gate at the front of the Dojo. (Safety)

I can't tell you how many times I had to yell at the guys to stop "fighting" and RUN! There were many times where the "good guy" could have took off, but instead, stuck around trying to "win".

In on case (of many similar that day) one student was on the ground, another attacked him and tried to pin him and knife him. The "good guy" reversed the "bad guy" but then instead of getting up, he stayed there in "top control" and looked for a submission. I had to yell at him, just get up and run... RUN!!! He was like Oh yeah! and took off..

Let me throw in something for everyone else here...

Before anyone can spar -- with / in front of -- me, they need to know what the purpose is. That changes from time to time.

I then make sure that everyone knows that winning doesn't teach you nearly as much as losing does... so losing is better for learning than winning. Counter-intuitive... but accurate.

This is also why you need to spend time with people under - at the same level - and above you. All 3 groups have their own different (and important) purposes.

Anyway.

Just common sense... Or occassionally uncommon sense...

-DW

many good points. Not sure I agree 100% that losing is better for learning than winning, I am more of the mind that both teach different things, both being valuable.

This is not what most people consider randori. Its not a bad exercise at all. Its just not randori. Maybe.....Dondori. :boing1:


As far as stereotypes of certain training methodologies and ego go .....check out the sparring done in this dojo and see if its really ego overload....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCreAT37U0k


And for a more hardcore look at the ego and sparring

http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbpitch.wmv

Again the word game I have found that different people mean different things using the same words.

Your clips are good. I find more ego in places people do not spar than in places people do spar (regularly) I think when the non-sparring Dojo try sparring every now and then, then they see the jerks non-sparring creates and then they blame sparring. The truth is that sparring just brought it to light. It was created in the environment of NOT sparring!

It is so easy to become a jerk when you walk around with your black belt, holder of all the secrets never having to put it on the line and prove your ability. These sorts of people beat their students down, hit them very hard, but never allow the student to fight back... It is a fear based culture through and through...

Free training in its various forms (as I search for a word that is vanilla enough ) destroys the false ego gods Dojo syndrome. the grand poo pahs come to see they are not all that after all..

of course this is the main reason many of these people (who fall under that category) never do "free training"

No, you seem to misunderstand the very basic points I am trying to make.

Take a look at any art that supposably tried sparring to help thier skills. Given enough time, each and every one I can imagine ended up as no better than a sport. While people are saying things like they are learning more from their losses than their wins, their actions are to win even if it runs counter to good habits.

Can you give examples, names, schools etc?

That is the ego that makes them do it. And they do not know that it is their ego leading them around. If you step back a few years and look back on something that happened to you, you may be able to shake your head and realize that it was your ego calling the shots. But at the time you will come up with justifications for your actions and defend what you do to the death. We do not see the ego that controls us and we should avoid situations where we might be lured by it. Otherwise, what we do will probably end up like the guys doing XMA kata for trophies.

My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?

Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu degrade after sparring. They developed bad habits.

Maybe if our taijutsu is perfect, we can do it too. But we need to be very, very careful. To be honest, I do not think my taijutsu is perfect. But I think I know what type of standard I should be shooting for. And the number of people that are in the Bujinkan that do not even seem to be aware of that standard of perfection is the vast majority IMO. So for them to do sparring would be a mistake. If my teachers in Japan have me do randori, then I will do it under their watchful gaze. But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.

I disagree GREATLY with this. I am sure your teachers have said this and all, But I disagree with your teachers here (as do many many many other highly skilled martial artists FWIW)

Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.

I agree that a base of movement ability needs to be there, but...

Respectfully...

 

[DWeidman]

Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu degrade after sparring. They developed bad habits.

I have seen the videos -- perfect taijutsu? Riiiight...

But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.

This is only relevant if you believe your taijutsu has to be perfect before you start sparring. I don't -- and more to the point -- I can't imagine why anyone would. Oh -- And I spar / roll regularly.

-DW

 

[Cryozombie]

Were are talking about randori. Randori is one section of, well many, many ways of training.

Maybe you should go back and read this entire thread before you say the whole thing is about Randori, man.

 

[saru1968]

Yes obviously "winning" is surviving.....

Not when the injuries you 'collected' during 'winning' kill you later and not when disengagement in the first place was available.

 

[DWeidman]

Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page2.html

Another incident that occurred when Takamatsu was 13 years old. He fought a Sumo wrestler in a competition, whose name was "Oni no Yama" (Demon mountain). These competitions were held regular in all of the towns, and villages in Japan, and it was common for all teenagers to take part. ON was first set to fight Raiden (Thunder lightning). They met in the middle of the ring, and Raiden was easily beaten by Oni. Takamatsu entered the ring, not even bothering to put on the traditional Sumo belt worn by wrestlers. When Takamatsu was asked his name, he replied "Akebono". ON attacked Takamatsu. but he was thrown from the ring with little difficulty. Takamatsu was proclaimed the winner. Takamatsu then fought several other men, some of these were up to 10 years older than himself, but he still easily beat them. Then into the ring entered a large man over twice the weight of young Takamatsu (Akebono). He called himself Osakayama (Osaka mountain). They clashed in the middle, but due to his size Takamatsu had difficulty in moving him, Osakayama grabbed Takamatsu by the waist, and started to push him out of the ring. While doing this Osakayama accidentally placed his foot outside of the ring, and Takamatsu was proclaimed the winner. Takamatsu had won, and Osakayama, told Takamatsu that he was really called Kokumonryu (Black dragon gate), and was a famous Sumo wrestler from Osaka. As Takamatsu walked home, Kokumonryu, and walked with him to his home. Kokumonryu asked Takamatsu's father if he would allow him to take young Takamatsu back to Osaka with him, and take him on as a student of Sumo. His father refused saying that he was already studying Budo.



And from the next page:

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page3.html

In Toda's dojo, Takamatsu was sometimes called Kotengu (small goblin). because of the way he fought, not even allowing the adults to better him.

Sounds like ego to me!

Hm.... Problems?

-DW

 

[DWeidman]

Not when the injuries you 'collected' during 'winning' kill you later and not when disengagement in the first place was available.

Hmmmm

Same page:

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page2.html

In the old day's It was usual for the senior student to teach the beginners, but on this occasion, he was taught directly by Toda. For the first year he was taught nothing. Toda, and the other students continuously threw him about the dojo. When the blood started to drip from his elbows, and knees nobody comforted him, they just continued the repetitive throwing, but still every night he came back. After one year he of continuous beatings he was taught his first techniques.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Again the word game I have found that different people mean different things using the same words.

My own take on it - "when the gloves are off, the game is on".

Your clips are good. I find more ego in places people do not spar than in places people do spar (regularly)

In a way, this is true. But those who spar regularly often go to far lesser lengths to hide their contempt for training methodologies they disagree with, or don't understand.

I think when the non-sparring Dojo try sparring every now and then, then they see the jerks non-sparring creates and then they blame sparring. The truth is that sparring just brought it to light. It was created in the environment of NOT sparring!

That depends totally on what kind of people you're dealing with. I can tell you one thing - if I ever snap and decide I want to teach, my training group will have both an upper and lower age limit. No one over 30 or below 20.

It is so easy to become a jerk when you walk around with your black belt, holder of all the secrets never having to put it on the line and prove your ability. These sorts of people beat their students down, hit them very hard, but never allow the student to fight back... It is a fear based culture through and through...

A culture in which you constantly feel the need to prove yourself is no less fear based if you ask me.

My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?

I believe Don is touching upon the very human trait of experience and/or remorse.
This last New Year's Eve a friend of mine narrowly avoided a fight with some doped-up guy who walked straight into him just looking for trouble. My friend initially seemed as if he was going to start slugging it out, but eventually settled the issue by apologizing and proceeding to walk in the other direction. However, ten minutes later on our way to the party, he suddenly became extremely PO-ed and started screaming at everyone including his girlfriend. The obvious explanation to this was that as a fairly macho guy, his ego urged him to prove to everyone present that he wasn't a sissy just because of his having walked away from a fight. He has since apologized to everyone about his behaviour that night.

Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.

How about what I suggested earlier - when arms aren't shaking, backs are straight and legs aren't, then it might be time for some randori.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'd wager that several of the stories about Takamatsu are apocryphal.

 

[Cryozombie]

No one over 30 or below 20.

So you hanging it up when you are 30, Bro?

 

[Seattletcj]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'd wager that several of the stories about Takamatsu are apocryphal.

They are apocryphal when it is [SIZE=-1]convenient, [/SIZE] I'd wager. They are gospel at other times.

 

[makoto-dojo]

In a way, this is true. But those who spar regularly often go to far lesser lengths to hide their contempt for training methodologies they disagree with, or don't understand.

Hello,

I am not sure I can agree here. I think it is fairly equal both ways.

A culture in which you constantly feel the need to prove yourself is no less fear based if you ask me.

Very true, but it is also true that it is an assumption to think that those who "spar-randori-free train I.S.T." constantly feel the need to prove themselves. (Not saying that you are making such an assumption mind you, I am just saying...)

I believe Don is touching upon the very human trait of experience and/or remorse. This last New Year's Eve a friend of mine narrowly avoided a fight with some doped-up guy who walked straight into him just looking for trouble.

.....

He has since apologized to everyone about his behaviour that night.

Its a part of growing up. We have all been there I would imagine. (in one guise or another)

How about what I suggested earlier - when arms aren't shaking, backs are straight and legs aren't, then it might be time for some randori.

I feel all styles (that "randori") and beyond that all instructors (that "randori") have their own standards and expectations set in place before allowing their students to do randori, be that "perfect taijutsu" (which I read as "never") or certain basses of ability.

In my Dojo someone on the Ninpo track can't di it until after 7th kyu. This is because of how our requirements are set up. I personally feel someone needs to be proficient up to 7th kyu otherwise they are not doing our art, but some strange creation called "save-my-butt-do" complete with a plethora of bad habits!

In our Ninpo, by 7th kyu, you have a solid beginning base in taisabaki, ashi sabaki, taihenjutsu, ukemi and daken gata. We then SLOWLY introduce I.S.T. mostly sabaki at first. When a student moves from level to level is up to how soon they progress under pressure without losing their taijutsu.

People on the ju-jutsu track do it sooner.

Koryu Karate even sooner

Goshinjutsu maybe first class (in some limited aspects)

Our Grappling class and kali class have "alive drills"/randori "aspects" right from the start.


I should note that when I speak of randori/free training. I am not talking about people going hammer and tongs like in a competition, but more like the clips seattletcj posted. Getting in and doing a competition is one thing, TRAINING is another. (I think ALLOT of people misunderstand this)

I also do not feel you can train some things in randori because they are too dangerous, maybe slow style free training with two very good mature students, but...

Anyway, just my opinion folks nothing more..

Oh, BTW here is a clip of Aikido randori even this "gentle art" understands the need for free training (I am not interested in a critique of their taijutsu or whatever, just showing that they at least do it in a free environment. And they are AGAINST competition! Also notice how pretty technique breaks down under pressure, maybe why lots of folks don't do it.. I don't personally agree with everything they say and do, but it helps show a point.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyyFlHhtWoI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI&mode=related&search=


thanks for the conversation,

Sincerely,

 

[Don Roley]

Can you give examples, names, schools etc?

Sure, anything from Edo period kenjutsu to judo to PPC and IPSC.

My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?

Lots of personal ones as well as direct observations of people doing things in sparring that are not good habits and trying to justify it.

I disagree GREATLY with this. I am sure your teachers have said this and all, But I disagree with your teachers here (as do many many many other highly skilled martial artists FWIW)

Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.

So you disagree. I understand that. I just happen to trust the words and experiences of my Japanese teachers and Hatsumi than I do yours. I am sure you feel differently and you are not a student of Hatsumi, so we are free to agree to disagree.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hello,

I am not sure I can agree here. I think it is fairly equal both ways.

Never met anyone in the Buj who speaks like Matt Thornton does.

Very true, but it is also true that it is an assumption to think that those who "spar-randori-free train I.S.T." constantly feel the need to prove themselves. (Not saying that you are making such an assumption mind you, I am just saying...)

It's probably fairly equal both ways.

Its a part of growing up. We have all been there I would imagine. (in one guise or another)

Didn't you just say that your experience has been very different from this?

I also do not feel you can train some things in randori because they are too dangerous, maybe slow style free training with two very good mature students, but...

It's not always the case of the techniques being to dangerous to "try out" per se, sometimes it's too dangerous for the people participating. I'd imagine the average tribal-tattooed ex-shooto guy finding his way into black-clad budo stands up against shutos to the neck a tad better than the geeky goth-clad D&D aficionado nest to him.

Oh, BTW here is a clip of Aikido randori even this "gentle art" understands the need for free training (I am not interested in a critique of their taijutsu or whatever, just showing that they at least do it in a free environment. And they are AGAINST competition!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiki_aikido

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So you hanging it up when you are 30, Bro?

I'm hanging it up next year because the world's going to end then. I'm going with Ernest Emerson - there's going to be a nuclear war following the Olympic games in Beijing.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm hanging it up next year because the world's going to end then. I'm going with Ernest Emerson - there's going to be a nuclear war following the Olympic games in Beijing.

Ah I see.

 

[jks9199]

My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say was that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.

Sparring, in any system, leads to developing bad habits if the participants don't already have good habits. I really think that's one of the reasons behind the decline/mushing of martial arts fighting today. People who didn't have the skills tried to spar, then when they couldn't get their principles to work, blamed the system. They then either abandoned the principles and "banged" or they looked around to graft something in that they thought would help... Instead of stopping and going back, looking at their basics, and seeing why it didn't work.

 

[DWeidman]

Sparring, in any system, leads to developing bad habits if the participants don't already have good habits.

Not sparring, in any system, leads to developing unrealistic habits if the participants don't already have good ability to apply said training at realistic speeds against people who want you ascert their will on you.

I really think that's one of the reasons behind the decline/mushing of martial arts fighting today.

... I think that is one of the reasons behind cults and people who hide behind rank -- leading to the decline of martial ability in arts today.

People who didn't have the skills tried to spar, then when they couldn't get their principles to work, blamed the system.

... People who don't have skills and don't spar, love the system because they don't have to prove their principles work.

They then either abandoned the principles and "banged" or they looked around to graft something in that they thought would help... Instead of stopping and going back, looking at their basics, and seeing why it didn't work.

... They then hold to the illusion that their principles magically have transferred from a lineage to them. Instead of stopping and thinking and using the art the way it was applied back when it was useful -- they rely on anedotal tales to explain why they think it should work. Anyone who dares claim it might not work simply doesn't *trust* or believe in the cult mentality that doesn't challenge the preconceived notions of the larger cult/group...

Honestly -- this can go both ways. I mostly believe what I wrote above -- just not quite as strongly as I worded it.

Don't worry -- this is a belief system. Logic doesn't apply. Neither side will see the merits or pitfalls of their belief system. Both sides come across as crass and elitist to the other...

Same ole record - goes round and round...

-DW

 

[Don Roley]

Sounds like ego to me!

To me as well.

Taking a look at the stories about Takamatsu in his youth, you don't see many stories that deal with using matches as a learning experience. If we are talking about using randori to better our taijutsu, then you really do not find many cases from the stories about Takamatsu. We also have Nagato's experience as a competitor and his comments looking back on it.

Takamatu's stories about how he proved his abilities in the eyes of others are great, but they do not seem relevant to the conversation at hand.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"There are two types of fool. One says 'this is old, and therefore good'. The other one says 'this is new, and therefore better'."