Realistic Training !!

[Seattletcj]

Competition is not the lesson.

Thats true. Good point.
I never said it was the lesson though.
The positive qualities you gain from competition, or competitiveness are sadly overlooked or simply ignored due to preconcieved biases in many cases.

A pretty balanced article on the subject :

http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.

Makoto-Dojo wrote: Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...

We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.

Great points.

 

[Ronnin]

Thats true. Good point.
I never said it was the lesson though.
The positive qualities you gain from competition, or competitiveness are sadly overlooked or simply ignored due to preconcieved biases in many cases.

A pretty balanced article on the subject :

http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.




Great points.

Well i believe both in fact do try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...

And the difference between this and my previous statements about how premature sparring makes all your training go out the window is...?

Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...

Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality. Most people advocating "more realistic" training are in actuality only looking for harder physical exercise.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well i believe both in fact do try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.

Personally, I try to establish control.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Well i believe both in fact do try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.

I have some thoughts on this...


If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)

But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!

When doing what I call I.S.T. what others have called alive training, unless there is a spirit of trying to help each other, then it beomes a problem.

Training is not about winning or losing, not about trophies and titles.

just my opinion...

Sincerely,

 

[Ronnin]

I have some thoughts on this...


If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)

But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!

When doing what I call I.S.T. what others have called alive training, unless there is a spirit of trying to help each other, then it beomes a problem.

Training is not about winning or losing, not about trophies and titles.

just my opinion...

Sincerely,

I think I may be a bit misunderstood. Let me clarify:
When I say "win" I don't mean it in a "sport" fashion with a point system. As I said earlier, I think randori is more a mental exercise than a physical drill. If I continually achieve a technique, especially mulitiple techniques with a partner, then I am winning the mental game. I am understanding the Taijutsu, understanding the application and so on.

 

[makoto-dojo]

And the difference between this and my previous statements about how premature sparring makes all your training go out the window is...?

Hello,

I am sorry I was not responding to you, so would you please point me to your previous statements. Until I know what they are, I cannot answer your question. Once you do, I would be very happy to answer you.

Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality. Most people advocating "more realistic" training are in actuality only looking for harder physical exercise.

The first part I agree with. I always say at my Dojo, the only thing "real" is REAL and all we can do in a Dojo environment is to sort of "surround" the topic. We can never duplicate reality.

The second part I respectfully disagree with as it is an assumption. As an example, my own experience with others and myself looking for "realistic training" is to cover certain aspects of the whole. i.e. senerios, timming drills, adrenal training etc. Although I am sure some may be looking for a workout, I don't know.

Regards,

 

[makoto-dojo]

In addition to the e-budo link I posted before, many of my thoughts on this subject (and related subjects) can be found here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9819

(Saves me from having to re-type it all )

Regards,

 

[Don Roley]

I think the most importiant part of randori isn't necessarily the technique, but to get someone to think quickly. To react. To train the mind. Train the mind, and the body will follow once the mind calms down. That's what I use it for.

I think there are better ways to do that. You may not be aware of them for reasons I have already stated.

 

[Ronnin]

Man !!!!!! My rep is still down. Oh well in the great words of Joan Jett " I don't give a damn about my bad reputation" we need a musical note image hahahaha......sigh

 

[Don Roley]

http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm[/URL]

In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

 

[makoto-dojo]

I've been watching this thread for a while now, and that's pure gold. I've been doing BBT on and off for a few months, but it was after my first randori experience that my assumptions about the art, my teacher, and my practice got seriously shaken.

Shaken enough, regrettably, to project my newfound insecurities onto the art. I started looking at other dojos, drifted sporadically in and out of classes (still paying for full membership, though, which is funny). Essentially wasting lots of time and money trying to find a reason for me to "blame" my insecurity on BBT -- it must be the antiquated methods, or the kata forms, or this or that.

But no. I trust my instructor, and I've practiced with some senior students who I couldn't touch if I tried. So the techniques are solid. But it took me a while to swallow my pride and admit that my lack of preparation was A) nobody's fault but my own, and B) a natural part of learning to become prepared.

Anyway. I just joined the forum, partly to find some answers and compare notes, partly because it seems fun, and partly because I find being in a community to be motivating.

But you definitely just hit upon something there, and I very much appreciate the insight.

Thank you for your kind words.

It sounds to me as though you made a very big and (IMO important) step and I applaud you for it.

One thing I think many of us forget, is that in the Dojo, we are being "taught" we are NOT being coached! This is a huge difference IMO.. A Sensei is trying to TEACH you conepts, strategies, movements etc...

A Coach on the other hand is drilling you to become better at APPLYING these things you have been taught.

You can take Basket ball as an example. First you must be taught the game, the rules and what not, you must be taught to dribble, how to jump shoot, how to pass. There are mechanics that must be taught, and you do this physically. BUT, in order to get GOOD, you have to DRILL it and even play in games.

Listen to basket ball games and how they talk about rookies. They say things like wow, he has a great stroke, great court vision whatever, but he needs more experience in the NBA.

In other words, he needs more time DOING what he is trying to do.

It is the same with us.. The Dojo in most cases is the time when a teachers TEACHES you. But the onus is on each and every one of us to put in the time TRAINING what we "know". In some cases, your Dojo may provide you with opprotunities for this, sometimes they do not and you have to do it elsewhere.

Not everyone wants to do what it takes. Also remember not everyone is interested in being able to Use these arts. To some it is just fun and recreation, and that's fine too as long as they are honest with themselves.

Anyway, that is just my opinion FWIW..

Sincerely,

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hello,

I am sorry I was not responding to you, so would you please point me to your previous statements. Until I know what they are, I cannot answer your question. Once you do, I would be very happy to answer you.

My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say was that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

Awesome post!

 

[Seattletcj]

Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality.

Agreed. It is not black and white. There are some methodologies that come closer to "reality" though (or at least certain aspects of reality), and some methods that are farther away from "reality".

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Agreed. It is not black and white. There are some methodologies that come closer to "reality" though (or at least certain aspects of reality), and some methods that are farther away from "reality".

No. All you can do is to choose between your limitations.

 

[makoto-dojo]

My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.

I agree with you.

Everything must be step by step, no short cuts. Different people take longer tan others.

But if someone clearly cannot do something under no stress, then adding stress will only foul things up worse.

What I also disagree with is adding other arts and then doing randori. There is no reason for a takamatsu-den student to "add" boxing, MMA etc" to what they do when they do randori.

If you cannot do takamatsu-den in randori and have to add other things, then you were just not as good as you thought you were at takamatsu-den.

Face it and get to work. No one said this was easy

At least that's how I see others opinions may vary..

Regards,

 

[Bigshadow]

In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.

Great points.

IMO randori is imposing your will onto another through the art and I guess it can be seen as a competitive spirit of sorts. But that wasn't what I had in mind. Ever see two people randori from a knife attack and they end up competing for the knife, rather than focus on principles involved? That is kinda what I was getting at. The same thing can happen empty handed.

 

[Bigshadow]

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

That is precisely what I wish I could have said. The feeling changes when ego takes over. Thanks Don! I have been struggling to get my thoughts into words on this and what you said is a large part of it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing that people probably can agree on is that any type of pressure testing generally changes the way it looks. (not the principles) What I am getting at is that doing a waza and then falling into the same technique during randori/sparring/rolling will look different and possibly even sloppy compared to doing it slow and without aliveness so to speak. That does not mean that it will not look awesome based on the result but yet it will look somewhat different than when practicing in the uke/tori relationship.