Realistic Training !!

[DWeidman]

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker.

Always? Hmmm...

There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

Just out of curiousity -- why is there such reluctance to get ego involved? Should you not want to win?

Ego at the expense of safety or learning is bad... but two people both trying to "win"...

-DW

PS. I rarely use a predetermined attacker. Too much is lost / given away in that scenario.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

How true!

 

[Bigshadow]

One thing that people probably can agree on is that any type of pressure testing generally changes the way it looks. (not the principles) What I am getting at is that doing a waza and then falling into the same technique during randori/sparring/rolling will look different and possibly even sloppy compared to doing it slow and without aliveness so to speak. That does not mean that it will not look awesome based on the result but yet it will look somewhat different than when practicing in the uke/tori relationship.

I would definitely agree with that!

 

[Ronnin]

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.

This is a good point which I think a lot of people lose in thier training. We must seek the humble mind. Ego will only hinder people from advancing in all walks.

 

[Ronnin]

Always? Hmmm...



Just out of curiousity -- why is there such reluctance to get ego involved? Should you not want to win?

Ego at the expense of safety or learning is bad... but two people both trying to "win"...

-DW

PS. I rarely use a predetermined attacker. Too much is lost / given away in that scenario.

this is also true I think. but the difference for me is ego, and determination. ego is a selfishness, determination is a confidence. That's how I view it.

 

[Seattletcj]

If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)

But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!

This sounds more like scenario training, in which the focus is different, specific to the goals of the participants. Both people have goals that they want to accomplish (i.e win), and actions taken are usually limited depending on those specific goals. Here there are uke and tori. Bad guy and good guy. Usually the good guy is suppose to win, which changes things, even if in a subtle way.


I dont agree that wanting to win is really a bad thing. Winning means you accomplish your goal...whatever that may be.
I also dont agree that wanting to win makes you an ego maniac. The more seasoned individuals can accept defeat and put it in proper perspective, and dont go wild in attempts to win friendly sparring matches at all costs.

Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective. This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble and look at things more honestly.

Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.

 

[Don Roley]

This is a good point which I think a lot of people lose in thier training. We must seek the humble mind. Ego will only hinder people from advancing in all walks.

The problem is, every last egomaniac I know of says the same thing. Everyone gives lip service to casting aside the ego, returning to the student's mind, etc. Then they do things that serve their ego.

Best to realize that if you have an ego problem, you will be the last to know. So you should avoid situations where you can strut around after "winning" (even a little) and structure your training more on learning.

Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.

 

[DWeidman]

Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective. This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble and look at things more honestly.

Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.

Let me throw in something for everyone else here...

Before anyone can spar -- with / in front of -- me, they need to know what the purpose is. That changes from time to time.

I then make sure that everyone knows that winning doesn't teach you nearly as much as losing does... so losing is better for learning than winning. Counter-intuitive... but accurate.

This is also why you need to spend time with people under - at the same level - and above you. All 3 groups have their own different (and important) purposes.

Anyway.

Just common sense... Or occassionally uncommon sense...

-DW

 

[DWeidman]

Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.

Did you mean this?

 

[Ronnin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Takamatsu sensei say in "The Essence of Ninjutsu" ninjutsu is the art af winning ?!

 

[Ronnin]

The problem is, every last egomaniac I know of says the same thing. Everyone gives lip service to casting aside the ego, returning to the student's mind, etc. Then they do things that serve their ego.

Best to realize that if you have an ego problem, you will be the last to know. So you should avoid situations where you can strut around after "winning" (even a little) and structure your training more on learning.

Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.

Yes ego maniacs do say this all the time, but they are then still ego maniacs. This should not stop us from trying to achieve it. We may never reach the complete loss of ego, but the only thing that will happen is you'll drop some ego, which is better than none.

 

[Ronnin]

Anyway guys this seems to be the last page, may I say thank you for all the impute, I hope everyone learned a little something. I know I sure did.
See everyone on the next thread !!!

 

[Ronnin]

Never mind, it was just brought to my attention it's not the last page. So I take back all the things I said.

 

[Seattletcj]

Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them as lightweight weapons instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

I'm also not sure what the obsession with ego is. I mean if someone is a jerk, or a beginner, thats one thing.
As far as the Daikomyosai goes.... Does it say more about the ability of the individuals who participated who were unable to put the activity into proper perspective and act appropriately, or was it the fault of the activity itself ?

At the same time I'd say its probably hard to move in real time defending yourself and trying to hit someone else in front of your soke...while pretending the stick in your hand is not the actual weight of the stick in your hand, but the weight of a steel sword, of which you may or may not know how it feels to use in real time.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker.

This is not what most people consider randori. Its not a bad exercise at all. Its just not randori. Maybe.....Dondori. :boing1:


As far as stereotypes of certain training methodologies and ego go .....check out the sparring done in this dojo and see if its really ego overload....

And for a more hardcore look at the ego and sparring

http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbpitch.wmv

 

[Don Roley]

I'm also not sure what the obsession with ego is. I mean if someone is a jerk, or a beginner, thats one thing.

No, you seem to misunderstand the very basic points I am trying to make.

Take a look at any art that supposably tried sparring to help thier skills. Given enough time, each and every one I can imagine ended up as no better than a sport. While people are saying things like they are learning more from their losses than their wins, their actions are to win even if it runs counter to good habits.

That is the ego that makes them do it. And they do not know that it is their ego leading them around. If you step back a few years and look back on something that happened to you, you may be able to shake your head and realize that it was your ego calling the shots. But at the time you will come up with justifications for your actions and defend what you do to the death. We do not see the ego that controls us and we should avoid situations where we might be lured by it. Otherwise, what we do will probably end up like the guys doing XMA kata for trophies.

Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu degrade after sparring. They developed bad habits.

Maybe if our taijutsu is perfect, we can do it too. But we need to be very, very careful. To be honest, I do not think my taijutsu is perfect. But I think I know what type of standard I should be shooting for. And the number of people that are in the Bujinkan that do not even seem to be aware of that standard of perfection is the vast majority IMO. So for them to do sparring would be a mistake. If my teachers in Japan have me do randori, then I will do it under their watchful gaze. But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.

 

[Don Roley]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Takamatsu sensei say in "The Essence of Ninjutsu" ninjutsu is the art af winning ?!

Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.

 

[Cryozombie]

Here's a great question, another member just IMed me about some of you kids... I wont answer them for you, but feel free to do it yourself.

[03:16] XXX: I can't figure out the issue with the Booj is
[03:16] XXX: I mean.....
[03:16] XXX: if ya don't like it, don't train in it
[03:16] ME: Right?
[03:17] XXX: Hey ya know what Cryo?
[03:17] XXX: Just between you and me
[03:17] XXX: American Boxing isn't my thing
[03:18] XXX: Gee....
[03:18] XXX: Somehow, I don't train in it
[03:18] XXX: Funny how that works
[03:19] ME: Oh my god, I'm going to post that...

​

 

[Ronnin]

Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.

Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.

 

[Ronnin]

Here's a great question, another member just IMed me about some of you kids... I wont answer them for you, but feel free to do it yourself.​

okay that's good.........but not one time here has ANYONE stated they don't like what the art has to offer. So that statement is kind of irrelevant. Were are talking about randori. Randori is one section of, well many, many ways of training. That would be like a boxer saying " well I don't like to jump rope, so I'm not going to box anymore".

 

[Don Roley]

Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.

But not in the way your phrased it and the context of the way you used in in a conversation. When we are talking about "winning" in the midst of a conversation about sparring/randori it tends to make people think you are talking about defeating the other person. Now it just sounds like you are trying to back track on what you were saying. Please be more careful with the way you phrase things in the future if that is not the case.