Realistic Training !!
- Thread starter Ronnin
- Start date
- Status
makoto-dojo
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 81
- Reaction score
- 2
Hello,
I understand your question. It is one I had for some time myself. Your question was open and not kan-specific so that is why I am piping in. I know you train in a Bujinkan school, but maybe some of what I say might help regardless.
It may help you to know a bit about my background. I trained in martial arts since age 5 and am 39 now (40 in April L ) My Father and all of his 4 brothers were war veterans, either Korea or Vietnam , my grandfathers on both sides were WW2 combat vets. Only my father had seen limited action. It would not be too far from the truth to call them all flag waving red necks our house being ultra right wing republican as I was growing up. (although that changed over the years and my parents became Democrat)
My dads family came from near poverty in rural Kentucky until his father came into some money by owning a truck company working for the coal mines (they all worked in the mines at some time, black lung was something many of their friends had) They came up hard, with hard work and beatings, my dad until he died had marks on his back from switches (any of you know what that is? Then you share my childhood nightmare..) and barber belt straps.
As hard as they worked, they partied harder! All of them during their teenage years got into lots of trouble. Only my Father and one brother overcame it all and became educated went far in their jobs and became well respected in society, my Father being very politically involved, we had various mayors and police chiefs over for dinner. Dennis Kucinich is still a family friend, and even came to see my father here at the house days before he died. I am very proud of my Dad and where he came from and what he has overcome. But I digress
His other brothers didnt do so well, they stayed in that world of drink, guns and fighting. During childhood, I was either witness to many bad situations, or heard about many incidents of murder. My cousin for example was shot in the head at a bar and killed; my uncle threw dynamite on the front porch of a house killing some people in retaliation for the beating death of one of my other uncles The list goes on
The male presence in my early life was one of intense testosterone. To be a man in my fathers house you had to do a few things:
1. Work you butt off and provide for your family.
2. Take no crap from anyone, ever period.
3. Not be afraid of anything, face all things head on.
I was indoctrinated into this thinking from birth. My mother on the other hand was very passive (who else could live with such a good intentioned but super nova type A personality that was my Dad) My mother taught me to walk away from fights, to read all I could, to go to church, get an education etc. Basically the yin to my Dads yang..
My Grandmother on my Mothers side also lived with us and was a very kind fun loving person. Those two forces really were essential in helping to balance me out, without their guidance, my life would be very different now
My first martial arts training was at age 5 under one of my uncles (one who was in Nam and also in prison) he taught me what he called kenpo the whole idea was to teach me how to fight if someone wanted to try to mess with me and learn to be a man I remember at age five him telling me that if the kid was bigger than me to grab a brick and smash him upside his damn head.
This uncle didnt ever stay around long on his visits as he and my Dad didnt get on well. I then went on to study Shaolin at an inner city school I was the only white kid there, and my first few months were very hard because of that, I was finally accepted as alright This school was very old school DEEP stances, tam tui (look it up) and LOTS of sparring, our sifu always said that you have to be able to fight or you are just dancing and he doesnt teach dancing. Sparring was very hard and people were hurt all the time. My mother wanted to take me out, but my dad said it would make a man out of me..
From this school I learned about effort, hard training, fighting and that there was a problem between blacks and whites at that time (mid 70s America) I had not known about there being problems with race until that school, but unfortunately I was to come to see that reality more and more as I grew up being witness (not involved thank God) to two of Clevelands worst gang race riots Warsaw pool and Morgana park. I seen bike chains, baseball bats, boards with nails in them, knives, brass knuckles etc.. It was bad and the scariest thing I had ever seen up till then.
My neighborhood was white. Polish, Slovak, east European... Even my Parents were victims of prejudice my dad being from Kentucky and my mom from Kansas, they were called hillbillies. Our first years there were hard. But my Dad being who is was, set them straight. That hillbilly stuff just didnt fly
Around our little neighborhood was African Americans on two sides, and Hispanics on one side, and they wanted to move in, the old guard didnt want that and many bad things happened. My parents being from the south believe it or not were not raciest at all, my father brought home to diner many of his black friends and that wasnt appreciated much by some of our neighbors (Too bad for them )
I remember seeing black kids come in the neighborhood and the white kids chasing them and beating them up. I also remember going into Black neighborhoods with me friends and getting my butt kicked! It was a stupid time back then and we were stupid kids. But I learned allot about fighting (against more than one person and SURVIVING not always winning, but coming home) and I learned about people both the good and bad sides of our nature. (Because I am not going to continue with this, I want to note, that I now live in a neighborhood that is 85% Black 10% white and 5% Hispanic. I have dated black girls, have many black friends and even my teacher is African American! One thing those early years taught me was NOT to be racist, we learned to see each other as people and not colors, much good can at times come from so much bad..)
My teenage years were full of fights; I was still under the impression that to be a man I should never take any crap from anyone and that lead to allot of fights. My martial arts training was always in Dojo that trained old school and sparred hard. I found JKD and that really made an impression on me. I also found ninjutsu a few years later (13) and really liked what I read (SKH) I had until the very early 90s mostly trained with SOI people and just took what I wanted from the training. I studied many arts; SOI was just one of them.
In the early 90s I went more mainstream Bujinkan, but was still unable to give it my whole heart, I still trained in JKD, BJJ etc. But near 1994 I decided to go for it full steam, I totally devoted myself to the training. At first I just went for it with total trust. But over time, I started to question things. Having been in so many fights, having seen so many bad things and having people close to me tell me straight out how to do bad things and what it felt like (Ill leave it at that) Having been a bouncer, working security, being a correction officer and having many, many years of hard sparring in all formats, I found myself having a hard time listening to these people who were supposed to be my teachers.
The things they said, and the way they trained... I just wasnt buying it. It just didnt wash clean There were a few times where I had to show these people what I meant and they had no answers They had high grades, but no answers. I had to wrestle with the idea that these arts (Takamatsu-Den) had been around for a long time, used in real battle etc. So what was the problem? Why was it that these teachers (shidoshi and above) didnt even have a clue regarding how to actually use their arts or teach others how to do it. All the people I ran into (for the most part) just did their art for some exercise, or historic cultural interest. Even if they were under the delusion that they were warriors
So, I started to doubt the whole art and lineage big time. You see people can say anything they want, but SHOW ME. Prove it to me For me personally I didnt come full circle until I met my current teachers and until I came to a more mature understanding of the whole things as well.
I know see that in my case, everything that I am taught has a reason, and the reason is explained to me. Not everything you do is for fighting, some things are to build a foundation for fighting ability. Some things to train your mind. Some, to train your spirit. The traditions I am involved in are REAL training, Mind body and Spirit! And it is not easy. I have finally been able to trust my teachers and lineage, but only because they have proven to me that what they are doing makes sense.
In my organization each piece I understand that each piece of the training is a piece of a greater puzzle, tanemura Sensei even does randori, he teaches us what to do against jabs and cross, against ground-fighting etc He has answered all of my questions and caused me to believe in him, so now I can trust him. Because I trust him, I can now learn
My advice to you is that takamatsu-den works, it is realistic and that you need to trust your teachers. But being in the bujinkan, you must realize, rank is NOT proof that the person knows what they are doing, or that they can teach. Part of your training is to be able to see who is good and bad. There are people in the Bujinkan who are VERY good, who can teach you what you want to learn. You do not need MMA mixed in with the training, but also, beware of people who mistake words and intellect with ability and understanding. If you keep looking you will find what you are looking for.
As I have pointed out, I came from a very interesting background, I understand violence in its many forms, I am the kind of person who has a VERY hard time accepting authority or being submissive. But even I have come to trust and open up, come to know that I dont have all the answers.
I have found my path; I have had all of my questions answered. I KNOW Takamatsu-Den is for real, I know it works, I know it is reality training in ALL of its forms. I also know that you too can come to know that for yourself, if you keep true to yourself and keep looking for that teacher with whom you can make a connection. Once you do that, open yourself up and trust. Thats the only way.
Look at the two videos at the top of this page these are people who have been there done that. I am talking life and death. Listen to them, notice how they train, what they feel is important. Arm yourself with truth and then get to work on the puzzle you will figure it out if you keep going. Even I did! And that is saying something LOL!
I wish you luck
Sincerely,
I understand your question. It is one I had for some time myself. Your question was open and not kan-specific so that is why I am piping in. I know you train in a Bujinkan school, but maybe some of what I say might help regardless.
It may help you to know a bit about my background. I trained in martial arts since age 5 and am 39 now (40 in April L ) My Father and all of his 4 brothers were war veterans, either Korea or Vietnam , my grandfathers on both sides were WW2 combat vets. Only my father had seen limited action. It would not be too far from the truth to call them all flag waving red necks our house being ultra right wing republican as I was growing up. (although that changed over the years and my parents became Democrat)
My dads family came from near poverty in rural Kentucky until his father came into some money by owning a truck company working for the coal mines (they all worked in the mines at some time, black lung was something many of their friends had) They came up hard, with hard work and beatings, my dad until he died had marks on his back from switches (any of you know what that is? Then you share my childhood nightmare..) and barber belt straps.
As hard as they worked, they partied harder! All of them during their teenage years got into lots of trouble. Only my Father and one brother overcame it all and became educated went far in their jobs and became well respected in society, my Father being very politically involved, we had various mayors and police chiefs over for dinner. Dennis Kucinich is still a family friend, and even came to see my father here at the house days before he died. I am very proud of my Dad and where he came from and what he has overcome. But I digress
His other brothers didnt do so well, they stayed in that world of drink, guns and fighting. During childhood, I was either witness to many bad situations, or heard about many incidents of murder. My cousin for example was shot in the head at a bar and killed; my uncle threw dynamite on the front porch of a house killing some people in retaliation for the beating death of one of my other uncles The list goes on
The male presence in my early life was one of intense testosterone. To be a man in my fathers house you had to do a few things:
1. Work you butt off and provide for your family.
2. Take no crap from anyone, ever period.
3. Not be afraid of anything, face all things head on.
I was indoctrinated into this thinking from birth. My mother on the other hand was very passive (who else could live with such a good intentioned but super nova type A personality that was my Dad) My mother taught me to walk away from fights, to read all I could, to go to church, get an education etc. Basically the yin to my Dads yang..
My Grandmother on my Mothers side also lived with us and was a very kind fun loving person. Those two forces really were essential in helping to balance me out, without their guidance, my life would be very different now
My first martial arts training was at age 5 under one of my uncles (one who was in Nam and also in prison) he taught me what he called kenpo the whole idea was to teach me how to fight if someone wanted to try to mess with me and learn to be a man I remember at age five him telling me that if the kid was bigger than me to grab a brick and smash him upside his damn head.
This uncle didnt ever stay around long on his visits as he and my Dad didnt get on well. I then went on to study Shaolin at an inner city school I was the only white kid there, and my first few months were very hard because of that, I was finally accepted as alright This school was very old school DEEP stances, tam tui (look it up) and LOTS of sparring, our sifu always said that you have to be able to fight or you are just dancing and he doesnt teach dancing. Sparring was very hard and people were hurt all the time. My mother wanted to take me out, but my dad said it would make a man out of me..
From this school I learned about effort, hard training, fighting and that there was a problem between blacks and whites at that time (mid 70s America) I had not known about there being problems with race until that school, but unfortunately I was to come to see that reality more and more as I grew up being witness (not involved thank God) to two of Clevelands worst gang race riots Warsaw pool and Morgana park. I seen bike chains, baseball bats, boards with nails in them, knives, brass knuckles etc.. It was bad and the scariest thing I had ever seen up till then.
My neighborhood was white. Polish, Slovak, east European... Even my Parents were victims of prejudice my dad being from Kentucky and my mom from Kansas, they were called hillbillies. Our first years there were hard. But my Dad being who is was, set them straight. That hillbilly stuff just didnt fly
Around our little neighborhood was African Americans on two sides, and Hispanics on one side, and they wanted to move in, the old guard didnt want that and many bad things happened. My parents being from the south believe it or not were not raciest at all, my father brought home to diner many of his black friends and that wasnt appreciated much by some of our neighbors (Too bad for them )
I remember seeing black kids come in the neighborhood and the white kids chasing them and beating them up. I also remember going into Black neighborhoods with me friends and getting my butt kicked! It was a stupid time back then and we were stupid kids. But I learned allot about fighting (against more than one person and SURVIVING not always winning, but coming home) and I learned about people both the good and bad sides of our nature. (Because I am not going to continue with this, I want to note, that I now live in a neighborhood that is 85% Black 10% white and 5% Hispanic. I have dated black girls, have many black friends and even my teacher is African American! One thing those early years taught me was NOT to be racist, we learned to see each other as people and not colors, much good can at times come from so much bad..)
My teenage years were full of fights; I was still under the impression that to be a man I should never take any crap from anyone and that lead to allot of fights. My martial arts training was always in Dojo that trained old school and sparred hard. I found JKD and that really made an impression on me. I also found ninjutsu a few years later (13) and really liked what I read (SKH) I had until the very early 90s mostly trained with SOI people and just took what I wanted from the training. I studied many arts; SOI was just one of them.
In the early 90s I went more mainstream Bujinkan, but was still unable to give it my whole heart, I still trained in JKD, BJJ etc. But near 1994 I decided to go for it full steam, I totally devoted myself to the training. At first I just went for it with total trust. But over time, I started to question things. Having been in so many fights, having seen so many bad things and having people close to me tell me straight out how to do bad things and what it felt like (Ill leave it at that) Having been a bouncer, working security, being a correction officer and having many, many years of hard sparring in all formats, I found myself having a hard time listening to these people who were supposed to be my teachers.
The things they said, and the way they trained... I just wasnt buying it. It just didnt wash clean There were a few times where I had to show these people what I meant and they had no answers They had high grades, but no answers. I had to wrestle with the idea that these arts (Takamatsu-Den) had been around for a long time, used in real battle etc. So what was the problem? Why was it that these teachers (shidoshi and above) didnt even have a clue regarding how to actually use their arts or teach others how to do it. All the people I ran into (for the most part) just did their art for some exercise, or historic cultural interest. Even if they were under the delusion that they were warriors
So, I started to doubt the whole art and lineage big time. You see people can say anything they want, but SHOW ME. Prove it to me For me personally I didnt come full circle until I met my current teachers and until I came to a more mature understanding of the whole things as well.
I know see that in my case, everything that I am taught has a reason, and the reason is explained to me. Not everything you do is for fighting, some things are to build a foundation for fighting ability. Some things to train your mind. Some, to train your spirit. The traditions I am involved in are REAL training, Mind body and Spirit! And it is not easy. I have finally been able to trust my teachers and lineage, but only because they have proven to me that what they are doing makes sense.
In my organization each piece I understand that each piece of the training is a piece of a greater puzzle, tanemura Sensei even does randori, he teaches us what to do against jabs and cross, against ground-fighting etc He has answered all of my questions and caused me to believe in him, so now I can trust him. Because I trust him, I can now learn
My advice to you is that takamatsu-den works, it is realistic and that you need to trust your teachers. But being in the bujinkan, you must realize, rank is NOT proof that the person knows what they are doing, or that they can teach. Part of your training is to be able to see who is good and bad. There are people in the Bujinkan who are VERY good, who can teach you what you want to learn. You do not need MMA mixed in with the training, but also, beware of people who mistake words and intellect with ability and understanding. If you keep looking you will find what you are looking for.
As I have pointed out, I came from a very interesting background, I understand violence in its many forms, I am the kind of person who has a VERY hard time accepting authority or being submissive. But even I have come to trust and open up, come to know that I dont have all the answers.
I have found my path; I have had all of my questions answered. I KNOW Takamatsu-Den is for real, I know it works, I know it is reality training in ALL of its forms. I also know that you too can come to know that for yourself, if you keep true to yourself and keep looking for that teacher with whom you can make a connection. Once you do that, open yourself up and trust. Thats the only way.
Look at the two videos at the top of this page these are people who have been there done that. I am talking life and death. Listen to them, notice how they train, what they feel is important. Arm yourself with truth and then get to work on the puzzle you will figure it out if you keep going. Even I did! And that is saying something LOL!
I wish you luck
Sincerely,
Seattletcj
Green Belt
Have we agreed on what "alive" training means?
If not, here is the definition most people use :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=straight+blast+gym
Speaking of alive, I wonder if you have tested this theory for real, in an alive scenario....as described in the above video. Leaving your arm hanging is fine if the other guy is "done attacking", or if it has already been determined you are going to eventually win. Otherwise you have lost a potential weapon and cannot use it as a shield eithor, and have potentially also given it as a gift to your opponent. If you can use it to grab and close the distance quick enough...ok, thats cool. But as a general rule, probably not a good tactic for most scenarios.
Try it..."alive"....with someone who knows what they are doing, outside your dojo.
What precisely do you think a kamae, such as seigan no kamae, is supposed to be doing?
-ben
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I can tell we are not going to get anywhere with this. Short anwser, I dont think seigan is necessairly a fighting posture for all ranges and scenarios.
To say that punching and leaving your arm out in space is a good habit really boggles my mind. Especially when you, or he has a weapon.
I will say it again. Try it, "alive" with someone who knows what they are doing, and is not involved with an x-kan.
Rubber Tanto
Orange Belt
Bencole said:
And you have tried this with a non-xcan experienced martial artist?
I'm only 5' 11" and train with weights every second day, weighing in at 92 kilos. I have been moving in and out of stances my whole life so I am a pretty stable guy when it comes to fighting and have the mass advantage to help keep me balanced. Everyone I have sparred with in the past years has commented how had it is to knock me over. My current sensei is the only exception and even he says that he would really want to "soften" me before he tried something like that.
I also have quite a bit of fight experience. And my ground skills are in no means something to laugh at.
Would you think it wise to leave a punch out in the air like that against someone with that kind of experience...I shudder to think what my sensei would do to me in randori if I left a limb out for him to grasp *closes eyes and see sensei smiling with glee at the opportunity.*
Perhaps that theory is best suited to new students and inexperienced attackers.
makoto-dojo
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 81
- Reaction score
- 2
One thing I was trying to get at in my post, albeit subtly, was the truth that no one should listen to a teacher who teaches you what to do in situations they have never experienced. It is very silly! Maybe akin to someone who plays banjo telling you how to play violin in an orchestra and thinking he knows because he plays a string instrument. It doesnt wash.
The only way you will know how you will do against a non-X-kan martial artist is to get in there with one. Or find a teacher who has. How to use the art in war can only be taught by someone who has been in war, how to use the art for personal protection must be taught by someone in the field, Interested in how to use it in police work? Find cops who have used it and learn from them.
Many people in all martial arts fall into theory and conceptual traps, they prove these out with dead ukes who move as they are told and never fight back. In these situations you can come up with elaborate scenarios all of which work in that environment.
If you look at our kata you will see they are simple and fast and no fuss or muss. The more fancy you get the further away from reality you get. Those with eyes to see can see the people lost in the fantasy world of their own minds. Be careful who you trust with your training, rank, where they live, what org they are in all means nothing if they cannot back up with action what they say.
Martial arts are serious business, caveat emptor
The only way you will know how you will do against a non-X-kan martial artist is to get in there with one. Or find a teacher who has. How to use the art in war can only be taught by someone who has been in war, how to use the art for personal protection must be taught by someone in the field, Interested in how to use it in police work? Find cops who have used it and learn from them.
Many people in all martial arts fall into theory and conceptual traps, they prove these out with dead ukes who move as they are told and never fight back. In these situations you can come up with elaborate scenarios all of which work in that environment.
If you look at our kata you will see they are simple and fast and no fuss or muss. The more fancy you get the further away from reality you get. Those with eyes to see can see the people lost in the fantasy world of their own minds. Be careful who you trust with your training, rank, where they live, what org they are in all means nothing if they cannot back up with action what they say.
Martial arts are serious business, caveat emptor
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
When was the last time you trained with anyone who has faced a spearman while he had a sword?
Just thought I would quote someone...
makoto-dojo
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 81
- Reaction score
- 2
I have never trained with someone who has faced that situation in Battle. I have with people who had done such situations with wooden weapons in Dog brothers type situationsand I myself have such experience. Which of course is not the same thing.
However when I teach sword I do it for the art and the concentration training, and maybe even the ability to use in sparring situations. But I would never tell anyone I was teaching them how to really use a sword in combat. Because I myself don't have that experience.
Not sure what your point was, but I hope I answered your question...
Sincerely,
makoto-dojo
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Messages
- 81
- Reaction score
- 2
Great quote!
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I recall having heard Arnaud Cousergue saying that although he's studied all kinds of Japanese sword schools, it was never until he met Hatsumi that he learned to use them for real.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
Wow... I wonder why he said that.
Truly the Bujinkan style of sword work in Budo Taijutsu is simply amazing. It is alive and free flowing and adaptive. Hatsumi Soke is almost like a wizard with a sword and this comes from someone who has trained with multiple sword master's.
Even better is that this skill seems to be alive in other Budo Taijutsu practitioners and that truly is a beautiful thing!
OP
Ronnin
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 210
- Reaction score
- 4
- Thread Starter
- #76
okay sorry with this last post I'm not going to regaurd what you have to say anymore. Benning school for boys hahahahaha. You have no idea about weather I have or have not been in any life or death situations. And there's no need for me to talk about this stuff in public. You just sound like a giant head. You're giving a bad name. I am stating my concern and what I have noticed from my dojo, and was wondering if others had the same problem. You are the reason why people think Bujinkan guys are all about ego. Take your own advice bud. Spin this how ever you want. Come back to me with some kind of insult..........that's fine, you'll just prove my point. And where you may have good points, respectablilty is lost in your pathetic attempts to show your experience. Again I was throwing out a frustration I had with our training in my area. So keep going Don, show everyone looking how you represent the Bujinkan.
OP
Ronnin
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 210
- Reaction score
- 4
- Thread Starter
- #77
I already did find him, and I am going to check out his training. I don't want to change the art for god's sake. But I do have different expectations from it, which I KNOW this art can deliver. I need a dojo that uses Randori. The point to my post has already been proven, I need a knew dojo. My teacher is lacking in what I need.
Rubber Tanto
Orange Belt
The trojan horse was a gift too...
And a fictional scenario added to the original story by a roman becuase he felt the original was boring...
unless of course you are talking about the fictional side of the tactic...then that makes more sense
And a fictional scenario added to the original story by a roman becuase he felt the original was boring...
unless of course you are talking about the fictional side of the tactic...then that makes more sense
IMO, tactics are very important.
The arm is not just hung out there with no purpose. As I see it, the thing that some people are doing here is trying to talk "Aliveness" but they are only wanting to address the punch in a very static way, because they lack the understanding. This is further compounded by sometimes witnessing poor uke and tori skills. The arm is not out there disconnected and without purpose. Our modern soldiers do the same thing, watch how they punch or shove someone back during CQ control while holding their weapon. But to try and take that out of context and place it into a static pose and say it has no purpose is rather adolescent and shallow in budo (IMO). In a dynamic environment, it may not stay there long, furthermore it may not happen at all, or at least not look like it does in a static form, but I would wager it will encompass the principles involved.- Status
Similar threads
