Realistic Training !!

[Don Roley]

Again, I didn't say I don't understand,

And based on what you write, I am saying that you don't understand. You think you understand, and that is dangerous.

When you started the thread about switching to Genbukan, you said that you had been training in the Bujinkan for "a couple years now." Well, at that stage in your training you should not be dealing much with rokushakubo IMO,, much less writing essays about the secret teachings hidden within the movemnets. You still have a lot of things to learn and thinking that you have all the answers is a very dangerous thing indeed.

There are things done in the Bujinkan and they are done for a reason- not tradition. All real students owe it to themselves to explore what they are taught so that they understand everything we do, and the reasons behind them. They should not jump in and say that certain things are useless or not applicable until they have that total knowledge.

 

[Ronnin]

Teach me more o-wise one.
You sure seem to know it all. It's amazing how you seem to know what I'm doing and not doing. A bit pompis ?

 

[bydand]

I'll refrain from posting what I want to and will instead be polite. Ronnin, take another look through the thread, you asked a question, people gave you answers. You don't like them, that's fine, there is no reason to get sarcastic and rude to anybody. I think you posted with a set agenda in mind and are on a Bujinkan bash spree here.

You don't like the training you are getting, shut the **** up about it and move on. That is my advice.

Oh yeah, for future slams it is POMPOUS.


Jeeze, yet another one on the Ninjutsu boards, just what we need.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-

 

[jks9199]

I see this come up over and over again in posts here and elsewhere. I think that the issue is not with the material but how it is taught. Also, the mind set of the instructor. What is the instructor trying to convey? The ones I have trained with drill the Waza or concept and than rapidly move to application in a variety of settings and against a variety of attacks at varying speed.

They also looked at the concepts in light of various other fighting arts that they had studied or if need be reviewed for that series of lessons. I do the same. On Tuesday, driven a bit by the knife thread on Kutaki, we spent a whole class looking at the practical vs. the Dojo. On Thursday we spent the whole night looking at escapes from a variety of grabs and attempts at takedowns.

Again, the mindset of the teacher sets the class. If you feel you need more "realistic” than ask your teacher for a henka or variation on whatever you want to focus on. A good instructor should be able to address it or be honest enough to say "Had not thought that through but I will and address it next class."

It also sounds like the people that he's trained with have fallen into a trap that afflicts a lot of people in various martial arts... they don't really know how to train with a partner. They can do a little dance, or they can "move around" but they can't really TRAIN.

I think Bujinkan training is similar to my own training in this regard; students first learn a technique either alone or with a partner. Everything is slow, the partner cooperates 100%, and it goes beautifully. Some people don't even get this right though, because the partner's distance is unrealistic or the strike isn't really thrown at the target. Ranges have to be reasonable, and you've got to be in danger of being hit if you don't do things the right way -- or you're wasting your time. At the start, as I said, the speeds are slow enough that there's no major risk... But, then, you start speeding things up. A lot of the time, unfortunately, I see the person doing the technique moving much faster than the person "feeding" it... (If I recall the terms right, tore is moving faster than uke.) OOPS... there's that unreality again! If your partner is moving at 1/2 speed, you can't go full speed! But, as you develop competence & skill, you both speed things up; your partner starts throwing the initial strike a little differently, using a different hand, or a different step, and so on. That's when you start getting into the "real" reality practice... And that's when the last pitfall I'll address here shows up. You stop doing the technique or principle you were practicing, and start doing "something else that fit the flow." You'll never achieve real competence with THAT technique/kata/principle if you don't practice it... You don't learn to play the piano by practicing the ukelele!

 

[Don Roley]

Teach me more o-wise one.

Ok, first of all... lose the attitude. Not only does it make the moderator's job harder and convince people you are just here to cause trouble, but it also kills your chances of ever getting good at this art.

You will have to accept that with only a couple of years under your belt there is nothing you have learned that I have not. But you would have to work hard for at least a decade to get close to understanding what I have experienced. Live with it. And if you make comments that are incorrect, those of us that know more than you will have to correct you so that your misguided views are not accepted as fact by the public at large.

Next, try working terms like "I don't know" into how you think, speak and write. You sound less egotistical and pompis (sp) if you do not try to state things as fact. There is a big difference between the terms "there is no difference between A and B" and "I don't know of any differences between A and B." With the latter, you leave open the possibility that there is a difference, but you just do not know it. But the former tells folks that you will not accept that there is any way other than your own. And when you try telling a board of people that have been training since before you were born things they know are not true as if it was fact, you are not going to be welcomed with open arms.

Let me give some examples of what you said and how you should have said it.

Instead of,

I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional,

it should read,

I don't know (can't think) of any reason we do certain things other than possibly it is because it is tradition.

and

for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor.

should read,

I don't know of any application for age uchi other than in regards to armor.

continuing on,

But in a real situation, it just happens to fast.

should be,

I don't know how to do it in a real situation yet because it seems too fast to me and the way I am looking at the problem.

You see! If you consider the above instead of trying to tell us how much you already know, you might learn something from this board. Of course, you really need to learn from a teacher. Maybe yours is good, maybe he is bad. After over a decade of living in Japan, I have seen a lot of American teachers roll through that don't seem to be up to snuff with what I am learning. But if your teacher is the type that will admit that he is wrong and he is continuing to keep going to those that know more than him in the Bujinkan (and those guys do the same) then I think that even the bad teachers will have the chance to gain a deeper understanding than they do now.

But the other type, the type you are in danger of becomming, are the types to state what they believe as fact with little understanding of the true situation. They will not empty their cups and when told they need more insight they reject things, storm off and set up their own little empires. One good example of that type of person is Rick Tew. Go ahead and do a search here and see what the opinion of him is.

In short, if you take the attitude that you don't know how to apply what you do to a real situation, then you stand on the edge of learning how to. But if you state that what we do is not applicable, then you close your mind to the answers before you ever get a chance. You don't know how to use this stuff in a real situation. That does not mean that noone else can possibly know or do it. Look deeper at the problem and consider a good long time before you state certain things as fact.

I hope you enjoyed and gained from this little lesson you asked for.

 

[exile]

I think that Don's immediately preceding tutorial on how to take advantage of the board's knowledge to help fill in gaps in your own, and jks' nice pithy sketch of how to make the move from the image of the tech in your mind to real time application in a variety of circumstances, are two of the best posts I've ever read on any discussion board.

 

[bydand]

I think that Don's immediately preceding tutorial on how to take advantage of the board's knowledge to help fill in gaps in your own, and jks' nice pithy sketch of how to make the move from the image of the tech in your mind to real time application in a variety of circumstances, are two of the best posts I've ever read on any discussion board.

Agree 100%

 

[Alan Witty]

But, then, you start speeding things up. A lot of the time, unfortunately, I see the person doing the technique moving much faster than the person "feeding" it... (If I recall the terms right, tore is moving faster than uke.) OOPS... there's that unreality again! If your partner is moving at 1/2 speed, you can't go full speed! But, as you develop competence & skill, you both speed things up; your partner starts throwing the initial strike a little differently, using a different hand, or a different step, and so on. That's when you start getting into the "real" reality practice... And that's when the last pitfall I'll address here shows up. You stop doing the technique or principle you were practicing, and start doing "something else that fit the flow." You'll never achieve real competence with THAT technique/kata/principle if you don't practice it... You don't learn to play the piano by practicing the ukelele!

That is why you need an instructor. I think of that role as not only teaching but also facillitating. An instructor is not much use if he or she is not observing, correcting and redirecting all work back to the core concept and if necessary going back to the initial WAZA and reviewing if need be. All focus needs to be on seeing the student doing the technique correctly and the application correctly. Demonstrate, observe, correct, reinforce. IMHO.

 

[magic.man.joe]

I agree with Don, but would also like to add that doing the basics makes the IDEA of the moves as Soke' puts it "no mind". I've been training in the Bujinkan since 1986 on and off and I'm glad to train with people that are just starting and those that are of higher rank than my self. We all contribute some knowledge to the whole. The truth of the matter is you should ask your Sensei the question you asked on this board he/she would be better suited to give you your answer.

 

[Ronnin]

Okay Don read my post again please. I said my dojo, and those in my area based on those I've spoken to. You seem to be a knowledgeable guy, being in Japan and all, also you seem to focus on my errors that don't sway my post. You're spending time on what I should've said, or how to say it instead of my post. I hate to bring this up because it's been done to death, but really think about it ego free (I'm not just speaking to Don here) why aren't any of the Kans in MMA? Really. That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) IN MY EXPERIENCES !!! Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this. Their unconventual manner, speed, and aggression. These are things not delt with in my dojo. OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Okay Don read my post again please. I said my dojo, and those in my area based on those I've spoken to. You seem to be a knowledgeable guy, being in Japan and all, also you seem to focus on my errors that don't sway my post. You're spending time on what I should've said, or how to say it instead of my post. I hate to bring this up because it's been done to death, but really think about it ego free (I'm not just speaking to Don here) why aren't any of the Kans in MMA? Really. That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) IN MY EXPERIENCES !!! Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this. Their unconventual manner, speed, and aggression. These are things not delt with in my dojo. OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!

1. No, what they're doing is not what happens in the street. Basically because it's happening within a ring or octagon, they're both unarmed as well as similarly prepared and trained, and their buddies aren't allowed to join in to up the ante for the losing part.

2. Tips for reading: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

 

[Ronnin]

1. No, what they're doing is not what happens in the street. Basically because it's happening within a ring or octagon, they're both unarmed as well as similarly prepared and trained, and their buddies aren't allowed to join in to up the ante for the losing part.

2. Tips for reading: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here. There are all the big name Jujutsu and MMA schools here. Gracie, No Limits, sections of Militige Camp, and the list goes on. So over here it's pretty close to what you see on TV. If you go to a bar or something, you have a good chance of finding out how good you are. I will read your link.

 

[bencole]

OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!

Where do you live?

why aren't any of the Kans in MMA?

I personally have no interest in MMA. I am interested in what Hatsumi-sensei can do. Granted, there are some people in the Bujinkan who *ARE* interested: Sean Askew and David Dow both do MMA and think it rocks!

That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) IN MY EXPERIENCES !!!

Really? No weapons? No friends? No barstools or salt shakers? No glass or broken concrete on the ground?

MMA looks *NOTHING* like what I or my friends have see in the real world....

Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this.

The same way I would handle a crazed crack head, a jerk in a bar, or a drunk uncle at a wedding. Using the same principles that Don is hoping that you will come to recognize before tossing the art aside.

when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional

So let's go back to Age Uchi for a moment.... You say you understand the movement and Don says that you don't (as evidenced by your post).

Have you figured out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the Bo?

If not, you do not understand the movement of Age Uchi. This is Don's point.

Instead of raising your voice to Don, why don't you actually go to the dojo, and try to do Age Uchi without a bo. Then have your uke really try to take your head off with a good old "one-two," and use Age Uchi against them (again without a bo).

Then come back and tell us what you've figured out....

Cheers!

-ben

 

[bencole]

I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here.

Sorry, we crossed posted there. I know now that you are in OC.

Why not go train with David Dow? He's just down the street from you.

Another alternative is Dan Weidman. He's also in L.A.

-ben

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea.

If by this you mean consensual fights, in which both people had the opportunity to leave but chose not to, I agree. The solution to this is simply to make a choice not to move in.

I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here. There are all the big name Jujutsu and MMA schools here. Gracie, No Limits, sections of Militige Camp, and the list goes on. So over here it's pretty close to what you see on TV. If you go to a bar or something, you have a good chance of finding out how good you are. I will read your link.

I have bad news for you - you're not going to be able to beat any of the big names in MMA any time soon, at least not bare-handed (hint hint), by emulating their practice methods or otherwise.

 

[Ronnin]

Sorry, we crossed posted there. I know now that you are in OC.

Why not go train with David Dow? He's just down the street from you.

Another alternative is Dan Weidman. He's also in L.A.

-ben

I would love to find him.
No I don't know Age Uchi without the Bo, that's my point. The dojo training !! Why does nobody understand that? It's unfortunate that some dojo's teach some things and others do not.

 

[Rook]

Ronnin, I'm going to make a suggestion.

I hardly ever post in this forum and rarely read it in. It appears that your prefered method of being taught, of training, and of discussing ideas is a poor fit for the teaching, training and discussing ideas in BBT and probably several other arts. Its my personal advice that you consider switching arts to one that fits your preferances better. Training halls never change their methods because of one person and only rarely because of pressure from many people. Rather than trying to change the system, you should consider switching to a system that suits you already.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

As many here will know, my Bujinkan Dojo has sparring, pressure testing and resistance training as part of its syllabus, and I am a big advocate of all schools using these in Bujinkan training...but this does not mean that we have thrown kata to the wayside.

In fact, I find kata of great importance and I have had this discussion before with people who think the kata is telling us HOW we should be fighting when (IMO) its how we should be MOVING when we fight. It is not telling us that when someone throws a punch we MUST do a taki yori...but showing us that if ever the opportunity arises to use a taki yori, we will know HOW to do one.

Ronnin, think of the kata as the uke being a punching bag that walks, steps forward, throws punches and falls/flips/stumbles/etc like a human.

To me, that's all it is.

As tori, (IMO) you are getting this person (yes at times compliant) as a dummy to practice what you are learning. I would say that getting a white belt to pull off a muso dori on a fully resistant opponent might make for much frustration, yes? So hence, the kata is the place to figure out 1) the technique, 2) the distance and timing 3) the balance (yours and uke) and 4) the force, movement required to pull it off.

It can be up to you, once you feel comfortable with what ever kata you are looking at, to get your uke to raise the speed, resistance for you.

The other thing is that many think that when uke throws that famous "lunge punch" that you as uke are learning to punch/strike like that. Not so. You learn to punch strike as tori... have you ever noticed that as tori your punches, shutos etc aren't lunging strikes?

Once again... uke is just a breathing punching bag.

If you really liked your bujinkan training (technique wise) but felt that you were not getting the realism you wanted, you could always just suss out which of your fellow students feel the same way and agree to spar with them after class. You would be amazed how much you could learn here, and that as people watched, would want to join. At my dojo, the group became big enough to make a whole class out of it. It's not rocket science.

 

[saru1968]

taki yori

?

Grilled meat?