Realistic Training !!

[budoboy]

"Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers:"

I think this is a very good point. There is so much talk of not using strength that you would think that strength never won a fight. Since we always talk of not using strength some people may misconstrue this to mean that the don't have to have any physical conditioning at all to be effective.

Strength has its uses. In training we would like to rely on good use of technology and principles but in real life strength often comes into play. Spagetti arms aren't very effective in grappling in my opinion.

Jeff

 

[Varg05R6]

I think the gist of the idea is not that strength is bad, simply not to depend on your strength.

Don't fear strength...seek it! Just don't rely on it to win all your battles.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Agreed, but then people tend to forget about it when they've recovered. I'm saying this out of experience.

Out of curiosity, and to benifit the discussion. What exactly is your experience here?
Are we talking BJK practitioners only here? And if so, lower rank, equal rank or higher rank, and how much experience did they have?

What about practitioners outside the BJK?

The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.

You've said this a few times. It's an interesting discussion point.
What are the bad habits you feel people pick up through randori?
Could you list them?

~Nick

 

[Don Roley]

If you are very strong, but are totally outskilled, you will usually lose. If you are really strong and have superior skill, you will probably do very well.
duh !

Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits? And if a "bad habit" is picked up people do learn and change, all the time.

Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers:

I would point you in the direction of this well written piece for a much better response to your question than I could give.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits?

I'm not going to discuss that with you. You've made it very clear you don't care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as taught by the Japanese.

Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers:

Not going to discuss this either.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=502843&postcount=58

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Out of curiosity, and to benifit the discussion. What exactly is your experience here?
Are we talking BJK practitioners only here? And if so, lower rank, equal rank or higher rank,

All of the above.
My experience is just that - that with the premature addition of stress people tend to forget that they're eventually going to get fatigued and tense up too much. Happens to me too.

What about practitioners outside the BJK?

Mostly (but not only) FMA/IMA people, if you don't count first-time visitors to Bujinkan dojos who've practiced other styles.

You've said this a few times. It's an interesting discussion point.
What are the bad habits you feel people pick up through randori?
Could you list them?

Biases, give-and-take-mentalities, over-reliance on their upper bodies, tendency to forget about weapons and additional opponents, poor usage of kamae, bent backs etc...

 

[Seattletcj]

I'm not going to discuss that with you.

I guess we have done this before. The debate on strength, conditioning, and budo taijutsu can be found here.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=502843#post502843

 

[Rook]

A few questions:

1. Are you guys aware that good grappling instructors will ussually pair people trying to use muscle with someone substantially larger so that they are forced to use technique?
2. How do you train to counter someone using their strength aggressively if your training partners are banned from doing so?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think the gist of the idea is not that strength is bad, simply not to depend on your strength.

Don't fear strength...seek it! Just don't rely on it to win all your battles.

Nice post! Strength, Conditioning, Flexibility are all important. Yet one should not rely on them or you may find that at some point you will be in a situation where you are ill, fatigued, old, etc and you will not have the strength, conditioning, etc to survive.

I try to make sure that I am always in good shape both physically and mentally. Yet my goal in training is to be smooth, flowing and relaxed. (not muscleing through the technique) This mentality has served me well in both my personal and professional life.

 

[exile]

Nice post! Strength, Conditioning, Flexibility are all important. Yet one should not rely on them or you may find that at some point you will be in a situation where you are ill, fatigued, old, etc and you will not have the strength, conditioning, etc to survive.

Or looking at the same idea in terms of positives, rather than avoiding a negative: all other things being equal, a strike delivered with greater strength has a correspondingly greater chance of ending the fight right there. A blow to a weak point delivered with a certain degree of strength may disrupt but not incapacitate the assailant; if the same strike is delivered with sufficient strength, it will make it impossible for the attacker to carry on. As long as people don't regard strength as a cure-all or compensation for technical inadequacies, and as long as they train other components as necesary (e.g., balance; if you're off balance you very likely can't deliver an effective attack or defense even if you're really strong), more strength is definitely an advantage.

The idea is that strength is good, but relying on strength alone, or primarily (and training as though strength compensates for poor technique)—that's bad...

 

[Seattletcj]

Good points Brian. Balance.

Although I dont remember anyone ever advocating muscling through technique. Its a straw man that seems to always slip itself cleverly into these converations (I'm not saying you slipped it in there ).

 

[Seattletcj]

I'm not going to discuss that with you (picking up bad habits from sparring). You've made it very clear you don't care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as taught by the Japanese.

Logical fallacies for future reference

1)Ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

2) poisoning the well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

3) appeal to emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

4) appeal to tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

5) strawman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Don Roley]

A few questions:

1. Are you guys aware that good grappling instructors

Are you aware that this section is about discussions about an art as it is practiced in Japan, that the Bujinkan has different ways of doing things than grappling instructors for reasons of our own and that if we want to discuss grappling as you do it we can go to an entire section here at MartialTalk instead of bringing it up here?

will ussually pair people trying to use muscle with someone substantially larger so that they are forced to use technique?
2. How do you train to counter someone using their strength aggressively if your training partners are banned from doing so?

Who has said the the training partner is banned from using his strength? Everyone so far is trying to talk about how to prevent us from relying on power. The Uke is trying to simulate an attack and when I uke for a hold or something I use all my strength to make sure it is a realistic attack. Others do the same for me.

 

[Don Roley]

Although I dont remember anyone ever advocating muscling through technique. Its a straw man that seems to always slip itself cleverly into these converations (I'm not saying you slipped it in there ).

Well, as has been pointed out again and again, a lot of people say they are going to build up strenght but not rely on it. But everyone I know who has built up strength seems to rely on it without conciously being aware of it. I know two very skilled Japanese who have said they used to do weight lifting, etc but decided it was a mistake and slowed their learning. They were not conscious of the matter, but looking back on it they can see the problems they had because of their unconcious actions.

 

[Rook]

Are you aware that this section is about discussions about an art as it is practiced in Japan, that the Bujinkan has different ways of doing things than grappling instructors for reasons of our own and that if we want to discuss grappling as you do it we can go to an entire section here at MartialTalk instead of bringing it up here?

I did not raise the issue to discuss how sports grappling works but to point out that the objection that people could develop "bad habits of relying on strength" can be and IS frequently and easily corrected. Hatsumi surly must be aware of these practices, as they are used extensively in other JJJ arts, as well as in modern sports grappling.

Who has said the the training partner is banned from using his strength? Everyone so far is trying to talk about how to prevent us from relying on power. The Uke is trying to simulate an attack and when I uke for a hold or something I use all my strength to make sure it is a realistic attack. Others do the same for me.

So the attacker is permitted to use as much strength as is available to him in his attack?

 

[Don Roley]

I did not raise the issue to discuss how sports grappling works but to point out that the objection that people could develop "bad habits of relying on strength" can be and IS frequently and easily corrected. Hatsumi surly must be aware of these practices, as they are used extensively in other JJJ arts, as well as in modern sports grappling.

And if he does not lead us in doing pushups, etc despite being aware of them, don't you think there may be a reason?

This would be the place to discuss those reasons if we knew them. Other arts have their own ways, as well as their own sections to talk about them.

So the attacker is permitted to use as much strength as is available to him in his attack?

As in all things, it depends. At the beggining I might not use all the strength with a newbie until they start to get the movements down. Then I crank it on little by little. With advanced practicioners, I start off by doing my damndest to hold on as strongly as possible.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Thanks for the reply, Nim

On bad habits in randori you have noted:

All of the above.
1) Biases,
2) give-and-take-mentalities,
3) over-reliance on their upper bodies,
4)tendency to forget about weapons and additional opponents,
5) poor usage of kamae,
6) bent backs etc...

Good points...
but I would say most people build habits 3, 4, 5 & 6 when first learning kata too. habit 1 is only created when the student only trains randori and not technique (kata) and as we are saying, does not have a healthy balance.

I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Logical fallacies for future reference

1)Ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

2) poisoning the well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

3) appeal to emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

4) appeal to tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

5) strawman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You don't care about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. As such bad habits are nothing you feel the need to concern yourself with.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

LOL...someone neg repped me because asking Nimravus to elaborate on a post was considered thread hijacking...funny, yet sad...


On the strength issue. At a bullshido throwdown, I found I could muscle through some of the techniquess used against me when partnered up against a bjj practitioner of about a year. But then a few moments later when partnered up against a bjj practioner of 20+ years, my strength did nothing against some of the same techniques.

So yes, its my little bit of proof that you can't always rely on strength to get you over the line.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

but I would say most people build habits 3, 4, 5 & 6 when first learning kata too.

Everybody falls victim to number three initially. But it's easier to notice and reflect on if you're not going too fast, which can also be said about number four. Number five and six only occurs in badly done kata training.

habit 1 is only created when the student only trains randori and not technique (kata)

Wrong. Let's say you spend the three free training sessions teaching a beginner torite kihon goho (kihon happo four to eight for those who want to know), taught as both releases to grabs and as responses to punches. If that guy gets to try randori at the time of his fourth session and realizes just how hard it is to "catch" other people's arms and "put on" techniques, there is a much higher chance of him becoming disillusioned and a) quitting, b) becoming one of those people who counter out of sync with his partner, i.e. moves at 110 percent speed while his partner moves at 70 percent, or c) letting his bias get in the way of his understanding, in that he's not interested in learning all the myriads of details that you need to understand in order for your skills to be put to work. I've seen this happen frequently, scenario b being the most usual.

Like I said before, I believe children have the right to be children for as long as they can, which is why the way people are brought out of their "invincibility" phase is so delicate.

I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.htmlhttp://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifedueling.htm#kali