Realistic Training !!

[Rubber Tanto]

I really like that description. Working from this, I would like to say, thus far, when I hear people talk about pressure testing, it seems to me that they perceive pressure testing as a means to prove or disprove what works and I guess that is why I really dislike the phrase. Rather than disproving or proving what works, I believe putting the pressure on is more of a measure of what I have learned from budo and what I have not yet learned.

Hope that makes sense, it is still early!

yeah exactly.

To me the "what works drills" are simply resistance training. I try to part a lock on, and you try to stop me. Thats pretty much it. We had a guy come in once off the street, who claimed to have previous experience. My sensei was trying to show him a particular technique, the guy tried to resist it just to be difficult, so sensei fluidly changed it into a different technique.

did that make sense? (It might early for you, but its getting damn late for me...and I just came back from a 6km run!)

 

[Don Roley]

To me the "what works drills" are simply resistance training. I try to part a lock on, and you try to stop me. Thats pretty much it. We had a guy come in once off the street, who claimed to have previous experience. My sensei was trying to show him a particular technique, the guy tried to resist it just to be difficult, so sensei fluidly changed it into a different technique.

did that make sense?

It made sense to me.

The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the tori manages to get onikudaki on.

A lot of what we do seems to depend on the folks trying to prevent us from doing one thing, only to set themselves up for something else. The Kukishinden ryu seems to be pretty big on this based on my limited experience.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

It made sense to me.

The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the tori manages to get onikudaki on...

yep. Even I was guilty of that in the first years I started...I would go to try something on a friend and they would resist and I would just sit there still trying to make the magic happen. Sadly there are some people that cannot move beyond that. One day a new student asked if I was do some randori with me after class. As he had been watching some of us play around before class and was interested to see what it was like.

I started off slow (as attacker). And I moved my arm out as a feint to test the waters and he reached out to grab my wrist, I pulled my arm back before he could make contact and instead of pulling his own arm back, he actually kept reaching forward, subconciously taking all his balance forward. Seeing the opportunity, I scooted in and threw him with a sacrifice throw.

He said "oh man I lost my balance." I said "Nope. You have a think about it."

For many weeks he couldn't see what he had done wrong. Then one day he just "clicked" and said..."I chased the tech!"

 

[Tenchijin2]

This thing about not chasing the technique is very true, but the opposite problem occurs frequently, too. People have such little experience applying techniques in unscripted environments that they have to abandon everything they try because they can't figure out the right level of pressure to apply. A little more energy and they could do it.

I've seen many people who could have pulled off a technique they abandoned if only they'd known how to apply a bit more energy. Not a lot, mind you, but enough to get the job done.

The trick is knowing when the technique really is lost, and when it's just a matter of the other guy struggling uselessly to resist a technique that is sure to succeed with enough pressure.

 

[Rook]

Interesting.

So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.

Bingo. The term "pressure testing," before it was appropriated by the "RB""SD" movement, refered to the idea that techniques, practices, strategies, people and arts had to be tested against the pressure of a trained, competent, resisting and competitive opponent at full speed, full power etc, to see whether they would stand up to the pressure that such an opponent would bring to bear. It did not origionally refer, as some now believe it does, to any and all drills containing any degree of resistance or difficulty above that of solo kata.

 

[Rook]

It made sense to me.

The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the tori manages to get onikudaki on.

A lot of what we do seems to depend on the folks trying to prevent us from doing one thing, only to set themselves up for something else. The Kukishinden ryu seems to be pretty big on this based on my limited experience.

I don't think you understand what is ussually meant be resisting a technique. Look at Judo for a second - one party is trying not to be thrown at all himself or herself while trying to throw his or her opponent. The techniques that are consistantly able to be used in this situation are the ones that are meant by "use against a resisting opponent." It doesn't necessarily mean that a person is going to go for one particular throw and that throw only only come hell, high water or the second coming. The Judo throws that, though technically in the syllabus, have pretty much dissappeared from competition illustrate the usefulness of the method. The same thing has happened in all the sport arts.

 

[Bigshadow]

Now we come full circle... How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?

 

[Seattletcj]

The trick is knowing when the technique really is lost, and when it's just a matter of the other guy struggling uselessly to resist a technique that is sure to succeed with enough pressure.

Something you said once that I liked....
Having good flow and adaptability does not mean being able to move from a crappy technique into another crappy technique, or
moving from a crappy kamae to another crappy kamae.

etc.

 

[Distance]

Although not a practioner of bujinkan I train about once a month with a group that are and I found the principle of letting go of a technique very inspiring. In one instance, I was attempting a certain technique on another friend I train with and with little success. He noticed and I ended up behind him. He used brute strength to hoist me right off the ground and over his head. Instead of being thrown forward I somehow dove between his legs and hooked my legs under his armpit. That was the first time I was ever upside down but still had control. Just to let him know I was there, I kept his family jewels within my grip (nothing damaging). His body stiffened and I was able to roll out of it. If I hadn't moved from my initial technique and let "instinct" take over I am sure I would have been slammed to the ground.

 

[shinbushi]

Interesting.

So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.

He is an alive approach to knife defenses

For the Record the reason Karl created STAB was that he was knifed 7 times in an assult and none of his previous training worked.

 

[shinbushi]

Now we come full circle... How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?

On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza. It means trying not to let your training partner do want he wants to that includes if he gets kuzushi on you regaining your balance or taking ukemi and doing a sutemi waza.

 

[DWeidman]

...How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?

A Lot.

-Daniel

 

[DWeidman]

Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works). It is full speed, full power, and freeform. Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.

Bull ****.

I have never heard it used this way -- you are standing on one end of a VERY wide spectrum here... Any good gym doesn't advocate "pressure testing" under your rules.

-DW

 

[Bigshadow]

On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza. It means trying not to let your training partner do want he wants to that includes if he gets kuzushi on you regaining your balance or taking ukemi and doing a sutemi waza.

OK. To me that is far different and makes more sense than what I think when I see or hear resistance. I understand that. I guess you could say that was a given. But I couldn't begin to count how many times on these boards I have seen them talk about muscling out of something.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza.

Absolutely correct. But the thing about sparring is that it's initially way harder to notice when you're using too much strength.

 

[saru1968]

A Lot.

-Daniel

I disagree, if done correctly they have no idea where they are, but your opinion and mileage might vary dann..%-}

 

[Seattletcj]

But the thing about sparring is that it's initially way harder to notice when you're using too much strength.

Until you

1) become fatigued to the point that muscling through things is not possible

2) try to muscle out of something and get beaten over and over and over and over

Usually it only takes a few trys to figure this out.

 

[Tenchijin2]

No matter what, you're going to use more strength than the minimum when you're under stress. That's human nature.

If sparring/resistance training/pressure testing/alive training is PART of a balanced training program it will *reflect* your ability to stay relaxed while reinforcing attributes such as timing, rhythm, and so on.


This type of training can be misused like ANY type of training to reinforce bad habits.

Balance, people, balance!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

1) become fatigued to the point that muscling through things is not possible

Agreed, but then people tend to forget about it when they've recovered. I'm saying this out of experience.

2) try to muscle out of something and get beaten over and over and over and over

The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.

Quote of the day:
"- And when we get to here it'll only be a matter of my strength versus his strength. In which case I'm going to win anyway, but that's beside the point here."

 

[Seattletcj]

The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.

If you are very strong, but are totally outskilled, you will usually lose. If you are really strong and have superior skill, you will probably do very well.
duh !

Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits? And if a "bad habit" is picked up people do learn and change, all the time.

Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers: