Realistic Training !!

[Rook]

If you are looking for a video clip, let me explain why I would never put a clip of myself doing this.

And you might want to go over to Amazon.com and look up my review of the book knife fighting in Folsom prison. You will clearly see that I talk about reading it and practicing against the types of things that people in prison are learning- rather than any type of sport attack. I posted that a few years ago after going over it with some friends in America that had some good pads.

I searched for Folsom prison on amazon and didn't turn up much. Do you have a link?

So no trying to hint that I have never done anything like this and are scared to try it, ok?

I rarely speculate about the motivations of individuals. I'm not sure what "like this" would refer to.

When you train in forms and such, you try to make your movements as perfect as possible. There is a reason why a good teacher will correct you to the exact angle your legs and knees should be in.

The same thing I was told in karate. Ok.

But Peytonn Quinn (no stranger to violence) has put it best when he said that real combat (or anything close) is going to be messier than training. And if you train messy, then you will have nothing in a real fight.

No arguement there.

So, if I were to tape the sessions I had going against a guy using the prison techniques, they would be of fairly messy taijutsu. They would not reflect the training I do outside of that. And it would not be obvious that I only had what level skill I did in the clips because I had other training that was done to a higher level of expectation.

I think you will find that many people are more than willing to look past messy appearance if it is effective. Heck, if you watch MMA legends like Igor Vovchanchyn or Fedor they appear quite sloppy on first look, but they seem to keep winning fights. I don't think we will judge your level of skill by the appearance of techniques etc. so much as the level of resistance and competency the opponent shows.

The clip would not be something that I would want others to hold up as an example to copy and learn from. All it would serve is to somehow prove something to others. And quite simply, I really do not care enough about what those people might think to go to the trouble. It does not seem to be worth the effort, let alone the fear that others might think that the mistakes I know will crop up are something to be emulated, to satisfy the curiosity of others about my abilities.

If I were to put up clips (don't hold your breath) it would be of something that I would not be scared of others copying as best they can and looking for lessons on how to do things. At this point, even that does not appeal to me.

Without knowing the training behind it, it is hard to emulate more the the appearance of a technique. This is true of all arts that I know of. I doubt very much if anyone would be able to steal your techniques or skills based only on a clip of them in application.

 

[Carol]

The link is here but there aren't any reviews for the book unfortunately.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Holy smokes! So much parsing - so many words yet such vague answers, or answers to questions that were trivial while the more broader topic is brushed aside.
Anyway:

On Ben talking down to people:

People benefit from my bluntness. There are far too many people in the Bujinkan who are afraid to correct people or tell them they are wrong. I do not have that fear.

I don't have any problem with that [Ben talking down to people when they share a different opinion to him]. What I feel we need more of in the Bujinkan are a couple of honest-to-goodness Führers who has the guts to tell us that what we're doing is wrong,

Funny how you both think that one someone tells you that it is rude to belittle people or talk down to them, you feel that I was talking about when you tell someone they think they are wrong... that speaks volumes of the both of you, don't you think?

Telling someone YOU THINK they are wrong is as simple as saying "I disagree" but then again...people treat words on forums like salad bars, they take what they want.

But since we are talking about telling people when what and how they train is wrong...There should already be plenty of those and I admire and wish all bujinkan instructors to be like that...when it comes to training. BUT...If I am doing something wrong in CLASS well yes, I expect my sensei to say that my taijutsu is flawed. When I am talking on line about a method of training and someone tells me that my taijustu is flawed because they have a different opinion...then you have no position to outright say it is wrong because you cannot see it, experience it or try it to judge it. All you have is your opinion, otherwise...well to paraphrase you, Nimravus, you become "some snob who goes on and on".


On what comes next after the punch that remains out there...

I don't think Ben has decided yet. In any case, I don't see why he'd need to at this point.

I would have just liked one example not a set in stone technique to be used from now and forever.

As Nimravus said, it doesn't matter. It is an active part of the terrain without me pulling it back. Learn to deal with it!!!

Deal with what? Don't get so defensive, Ben. It's you that initial attacked me. If you can answer my question or not, I'm not too stressed either way. I have used my taijutsu alive and know what it is capable of. You comment or throwing punches and just leaving them hanging in mid air really hooked me...I just wanted to know more...I was more interested in what YOU would do. If you (or Nimravus) have no answer, that is fine. I can accept that.

Who says that the attack is going to be over-committed?

You both do. If you leave your arm out there you are completely commited. Explain to me your definintion of commitment in fighting.

Why thank you, Mr. Tanto. I guess if my hand misses its mark or is deflected, then my hand is still out there....

To be grabbed. Yes. This is not a competition to see who is right here on my part Ben. I just like to find the best ways to train. You shouldn't get so excited...it becomes an ego thing that way.

But tell me...would you try that with nagato-sensei or hatsumi-sensei? How effective would that be agaisnt a higher skilled oponent such as them? (And no I am not putting myself in their category...so drop that stone before you think to throw it...but I am trying to understand how fool-proof you all believe this punching method to be)

Now, I could pull it back and try to "recock my rubberband gun" or I could continue to use my Taijutsu *WITHOUT* recocking. If the foundation of my Taijutsu is built properly, I do not need to "recock" in order to generate knock-down power.

Now wait on. THAT is not leaving your arm out there as you previously described it, in my books. That is fluid movement from one technique to the next. Perfect taijutsu. But that is not what you originally said. You were originally talking about punches SOOOO strong that you don't need to pull it back and it would blast uke's on to their backsides. Stop adjusting the subject to suite your current defence.

Something I personally do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel being on the receiving end of it. My experience training with people who spar regularly tells me that their taijutsu isn't giving them the results they should.

But how good is their sparring? And what exactly is your experience? Nevertheless a vague statement. Please explain the blue section in detail if you would be so kind?

I repeat: If you *CANNOT* generate knock-down power *EVEN ON A COMPLIANT PARTNER* with your arm extended, then your Taijutsu is lacking.

But Ben, I could do that when I was learning shotokan karate. I could do that when I was training kickboxing. And I can do that now in my taijustu. How does that justify what you are saying? You still haven't answered my question. So keep ignoring it and answer these instead. Have you ever tried rabdori with a MT fighter? A boxer? A BJJ grappler? An mma trainer?

I have. These all taught me that there are many ways that we can be attacked that we do not train for and then it helped me look INTO our taijutsu to find answers. Why do I find your punching theory so interesting that I require more explanation (and a video demo if possible) because when I try to imagine it as you say it (you never know, I may just be reading it wrong) I vision you throwing the brutal almighty punch, and my good friend Shane (mma training of 12 years) alowing it to come in with only enough deflection and time to come in with a flank-shoot, wrapping his calves around your feet and using sheer body weight to drop you to the pavement with he on top.

Now you are probably rolling your eyes at my vision, but I have seen it in action, and I have been on the recieving end of it. I have seen TKD, MT, karate and Kung Fu guys fall to it time and time again, even when they know it is coming. The extended arm is what lets it come. If you have not experienced it, then you cannot understand. Seattlecj has trained in similar. Dweildman I believe has trained in similar. Hopefully they understand and can better explain that which I am trying to use as an example. The MT chest clinch followed by rapid fire knees is another one that comes to mind.

All these things have helped me see my taijutsu in a different light. I am not "throwing it out" I'm working on it....then again...isn't there a saying that each person's taijutsu is what they make it? And that is what is so great about this art?

And how precisely did he mysteriously outflank you? Teleport? What is keeping you from moving your own feet toward him, away from him, pulling your elbow toward your belly, or moving your arm such that it is between you and him? You speak as though you want someone to stand there with their arm out and have someone walk around behind them to punch them? (shake head).

Again, clearly, you are not "getting it."

Funny that NOW when its time to turn on me you can give an example of what comes after that punch.

But seriously. Nothing stops me from moving. And move is exactly what I would do. But then again, flanking is my favourite tactic, and I move quite easily back to flank when people try to move to correct it away from me. But then again, from randori I am quite accustomed to going in very quickly so I don't like giving people enough time to correct footwork. I don't know who you have sparred with. Were they slow? Or are we talking just hypotheticles here?

I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board. The answer is "Yes" to your question [about trying kukan on a resistant uke], btw.

really? my question had been if you had tried your kukan ground theory against a grappler? I would love to hear about that? Who was the uke? a BJJ or MMA or judo fighter? Just out of interest.

I am saying that you should *TRAIN* so that you *CAN* learn to control him with your arm out. (shake head)

If you cannot do it, your Taijutsu is lacking. Period.

This would be a great time for you to film me a demo. It would help verify that which you say and help me and many others understand what you are implying. Then maybe, as a person who as you say, cares so much to tell us when we are wrong. You can help me "get it".
Unless of course you only care when you can talk and not show.

Again, do not throw out something from the art just because you cannot do it right now.

Again, I am not throwing out the art. Just your theory.

Try to understand *WHY* it is there in the first place. Clearly, you do not understand *WHY* it is there, and are more concerned about what others could do to you given that it is there. But you have not figured out *WHY* it is there....

please describe IT for me and what IT is. Clearly you have the ability to help me understand. I would love to learn from it.

There is no need to "add things" to the Bujinkan in order to make it work. You need to understand how the Bujinkan works.

Are you talking about randori? That is the only think I add to my bujinkan training and I have heard from seniors in the BJK via PMs that in japan it is common for some shihan to train randori behind closed doors. Is this a lie Ben? Do none of the shihan in japan train in randori? Please answer this question with a clear reply so that I may know which people in the bujinkan are lying to me. How does the bujinkan work. Since you understand and I do not. Perhaps you could explain it to me. Or will this be just another attempt to belittle.

Rubber, how many hours have you trained in Japan with the Japanese? Seriously....

Not one. And that does not bother me one inch. You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training. As well as another example of where you take a shot at me, thinking that this somewhow makes my opinion mute. Don't be such an elitist. Until you touch hands with me you cannot judge me so. Until you get a tap from me under resistance you cannot think yourself better.

You have to stop saying that someone must train like a japanese to be good at taijutsu. One must be good at taijutsu period. That is my aim. I don't need to understand why a technique is trained they way it is trained. I care only about how effective the training method is in providing an end result. Is that narrow minded? Maybe. But it hasn't let me down yet.

I have seen many a thread in the past from people like Don Roley talking about people that turn up to hombu and just suck big time. Is this not proof that clearly the travel to japan alone does not a great taijutsu practitioner make?

Who cares? (about the opinion of other martial artists who see the BJK poorly)
It sounds like you do....

I know a former BJK 3rd dan (here in Australia) that left because he lost to a BJJ white belt. A BJK nidan that quite because he was taken down with a combination of kicks and punches by a drunk MT guy at a BBQ.

So yes I do care. very much so.
If you do not care about the system enough to defend it then so be it.
~Nick

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Funny how you both think that one someone tells you that it is rude to belittle people or talk down to them, you feel that I was talking about when you tell someone they think they are wrong... that speaks volumes of the both of you, don't you think?

I lost you at "funny"...come again?

When I am talking on line about a method of training and someone tells me that my taijustu is flawed because they have a different opinion...then you have no position to outright say it is wrong because you cannot see it, experience it or try it to judge it.

What we can say is that you are making assertions that, in our experience, are not made by people who have received proper instruction.

All you have is your opinion, otherwise...well to paraphrase you, Nimravus, you become "some snob who goes on and on".

How convenient to take that out of context. You're now using that as an excuse to justify the behaviour mentioned above.

I would have just liked one example not a set in stone technique to be used from now and forever.

Why do you feel you need to be told that?

I was more interested in what YOU would do. If you (or Nimravus) have no answer, that is fine. I can accept that.

I personally try to get rid of the habit of deciding what to do before the situation occurs.

You both do. If you leave your arm out there you are completely commited.

Not necessarily.

But tell me...would you try that with nagato-sensei or hatsumi-sensei?

Personally, I'd resort to the cyanide tablet around my neck. Less painful for me that way.

Now wait on. THAT is not leaving your arm out there as you previously described it, in my books. That is fluid movement from one technique to the next. Perfect taijutsu.

I trust you're not expecting Ben or anyone else to have a cup of coffee between every move?

But how good is their sparring? And what exactly is your experience? Nevertheless a vague statement. Please explain the blue section in detail if you would be so kind?

At least you and the people I'm referring to seem to think alike so far.

These all taught me that there are many ways that we can be attacked that we do not train for

That YOU do not train for, you mean.

The extended arm is what lets it come.

Wait a minute - you're not saying you can only fall victim to a doubleleg if your arm is extended, I hope?

isn't there a saying that each person's taijutsu is what they make it? And that is what is so great about this art?

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm

please describe IT for me and what IT is. Clearly you have the ability to help me understand. I would love to learn from it.

And save you from finding it out while training?

Are you talking about randori? That is the only think I add to my bujinkan training and I have heard from seniors in the BJK via PMs that in japan it is common for some shihan to train randori behind closed doors.

Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another.

Not one. And that does not bother me one inch. You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a Japanese art. As such, to be a part of it, it behooves you to learn what the Japanese are trying to teach. The best knowledge of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to be found in Japan, anyone who says different is lying.

You have to stop saying that someone must train like a japanese to be good at taijutsu. One must be good at taijutsu period.

See above.

I don't need to understand why a technique is trained they way it is trained.

If you didn't need to understand that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Is this not proof that clearly the travel to japan alone does not a great taijutsu practitioner make?

Absolutely. But neither does keeping to yourself all the time.

So yes I do care. very much so.

Given the examples you mention, why are YOU still training?

 

[Bigshadow]

I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?

Or maybe they have been there all the time, but you choose not to see them. Just a thought.

Nearly all of the videos I have seen is actual instruction, therefore things are slow and very step-wise. I have not seen much randori where one could "see" it. However, if one cannot see it in a step-wise manner, they will never see it in a moderately faster and more flowing manner where there is no distinction between step 1 and step 2.

Lastly, you could produce a video just as easily, we don't have anymore obligation to create or produce a video for your convincing than you to produce one for us to critique.

I have video of myself, but I am not going to put it online, because it is/was training.

 

[Seattletcj]

All of the "hundreds of videos" that I've seen online of Bujinkan instructors are those who are *INSTRUCTING*.

When someone instructs, they are trying to show something. That usually includes making sure that the student can actually *SEE* things.

I'm looking for good attacks by uke. I'm not concerned with how good tori does. Not all Bujinkan clips are the stop action "instructional" ones you are talking about BTW.

Here are some quick ones I found.
Took 2 minutes, literally.

Not saying they are bad or good. Just asking for your opinion on what is good, as far as an uke attacking. Jeeze, its like pulling teeth.

Would you like me to post video footage of your teacher instructing so you can criticize how the attacks are "not real" and therefore the guy cannot fight or does not know what he is doing?

(shake head)

-ben

I never said I would criticize anything. If you want to do it though... sure.
I'd hope you'd ask his permission first, since he has not put anything on youtube for public viewing. But ya, if you want to.

CONTEXT : Don Roley and Nimivarus commented how attacks done in a certain clip were "lousy" (post # 183). I just asked for an example of an attack that they thought was good.

I wish there were an icon of a tumbleweed blowing across the screen though, because it would have been appropriate.
Anyway, forget it.

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.

IMO, a good attack generally contains the following... balanced tactical movement (not overcommitting), cover, and punching in a manner to not telegraph that the attack.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"Tall and straight in the back, but with the knees ever bent - this is how we fight." :whip1:

90 percent karate if you ask me.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

I lost you at "funny"...come again?



What we can say is that you are making assertions that, in our experience, are not made by people who have received proper instruction.



How convenient to take that out of context. You're now using that as an excuse to justify the behaviour mentioned above.



Why do you feel you need to be told that?



I personally try to get rid of the habit of deciding what to do before the situation occurs.



Not necessarily.



Personally, I'd resort to the cyanide tablet around my neck. Less painful for me that way.



I trust you're not expecting Ben or anyone else to have a cup of coffee between every move?



At least you and the people I'm referring to seem to think alike so far.



That YOU do not train for, you mean.



Wait a minute - you're not saying you can only fall victim to a doubleleg if your arm is extended, I hope?



http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm



And save you from finding it out while training?



Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another.



Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a Japanese art. As such, to be a part of it, it behooves you to learn what the Japanese are trying to teach. The best knowledge of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to be found in Japan, anyone who says different is lying.



See above.



If you didn't need to understand that we wouldn't be having this conversation.



Absolutely. But neither does keeping to yourself all the time.



Given the examples you mention, why are YOU still training?

I am still training because MY bujinkan dojo has proved to be effective. I have put it to the test and it has not let me down. Yes I love BBT, but I represent my dojo above all else.

Nimravus, A post filled once again with insults (the blue highlighted one is a gem ... pure arrogance) yet you did not address one single point with a straight answer. And that is all the answer I need, I guess.

My only other comment here will be on your view of randori...I asked if in Japan, randori is used. You answered with: "Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another." But in all my career, I have never sparred with a single guy that just wanted to beat the crap out of me. You are confusing sparring with fighting. Shame.
Nevertheless, you just agreed that in Japan the Shihan use randori. Does this make them, as you once said, Jerks? Or is this another example for Ben of "People trying to change their taijutsu?

As for this punch that hangs. If none of you are willing to clearly explain yourselves on what you mean, and instead just keep slinging insults, without a video clip as a demo, I'll just have to admit that I don't know what you are going on about. I have printed out Bens comments, perhaps my sensei can show me what he is talking about at tomorrow's class.

Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

(the blue highlighted one is a gem ... pure arrogance) yet you did not address one single point with a straight answer. And that is all the answer I need, I guess.

Then by all means set an example by asking yourself this question - why is it that the Japanese shihan aren't complaining about the training issues you're lamenting?

The fact of the matter is that you don't hear the stuff you're saying from most reknowned people in the Bujinkan. But you probably have an explanation to that along the lines of "group thinking"...? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But in all my career, I have never sparred with a single guy that just wanted to beat the crap out of me.

I have. Don't recommend it.

You are confusing sparring with fighting. Shame.

*cough cough*

Nevertheless, you just agreed that in Japan the Does this make them, as you once said, Jerks?

You just love to quote out of context, don't you?

If none of you are willing to clearly explain yourselves on what you mean,

You've said yourself that you don't need to understand why a technique is practiced the way it is. Would you please make up your mind?

 

[Don Roley]

I searched for Folsom prison on amazon and didn't turn up much. Do you have a link?

This seems to be the best I can do.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2GWX632S24QL8

Here is what it says,

I have known fellow martial artists who have tried their techniques out against other martial artists in controlled situations. The logic always kind of escaped me as to why they thought that the person that attacked them would be using the same techniques that they were taught in the dojo.
Rather than a trained martial artist, the person trying to play show and tell with your insides is likely to be an ex- con. This book is about the techniques that are taught inside of prison. It just seems logical to me that if you are serious about learning what you might face in a street knife fight, instead of going to Arnis, Kali or Silat sources to see what they do, you go to see what the people most likely to try to kill you are learning.

If you are surprised by what you find in this book- great! It is better you learn about it in the comfort of your home and try defending against it in practice than encountering it for the first time on the street. This stuff is very simple, but most of the most effective stuff is. And a lot of it relies on surprise. So by knowing about it beforehand you take away a lot of the advantages the other guy might have.

Now, I would like to ask the following question.

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

Marc MacYoung makes a very simple, but true statement, that an enraged drunk will attack like an enraged drunk and not a trained martial artist.

So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?

You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Now, I would like to ask the following question.

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

Hi Don.
As you may remember from a thread over on e-budo, I have been in a situation where I was attacked by four teens with one holding a knife. Even though I had a good number of years karate training back then, it did me no good in the end as four is a big number and I realised very quickly that people just don't attack one at a time like in the movies. All four attacked me at once, punching and kicking. I held my own for a short time and managed to knock the first person went down but even as he fell - a little dazed - he never let go. I think he was holding on to my sleeve. I was trapped as the others kept punching and kicking from three sides. I couldn't get away. I couldn't think. I couldn't defend myself properly.

When I saw one of them try to punch me in the gut. I managed to get a block in but then I felt a strange pain in my gut and I realised I had been stabbed. They too had realised what they had done, seeing the blood, and they fled. Maybe they had suddenly realised that mugging a guy with a knife wasn't such a good idea. Maybe they realised they had gone too far. I don't know. But it made me look at martial arts in a very different viewpoint. Maybe thats why I see my training a little different to some of you here. I know what it is like to live in fear after that incident for a long while, and then live with the anger.

In my dojo, I have to say we do not train for frenzied attacks. We just have your traditional kata training, followed by days where we focus on some pressure testing and then nominated attack/defence randori.

The pressure testing is the closest I have experienced at the dojo to that attack that day. Only in it is relentless.

Outside of the dojo, my friends and I try to mimic such acts of sudden violence. (One drill is just facing off silently - heavily padded - for a long period of time without eye contact, long enough until you start to lose that edge...then the nominated attacker suddenly bursting towards you with wild and fast kicks and punches and screaming to throw you.) Its never going to be the same - In the end you know that the person you face off is your friend and that he will stop if you start to flounder, and help you up - But it reminds me of a time when I foolishly thought what I was doing in the dojo (single person kata / no head no contact randori) was the bomb and I felt invincible.

 

[Bigshadow]

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

One of the guys who trains with us is a prison guard. He was demonstrating the type of attacks the prisoners do. At first it is quite intimidating to see it, even more when the dude looks like "The Rock". We worked on those types of attacks for awhile. It was interesting training to say the least!

 

[saru1968]

You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training.

Bottom line realy Nick, if you want to get good at our art then you take directions from the Japanese seniors, it being a Japanese art and all that.

Really is a no brainer and i'm surprised you said it...

Its fine to disagree, i do with many but...

The best practioners of this Art tend to be those who are either Japanese, reside there or have very close links.

Of course there are those that visit but there not the ones i'm on about.

Really sounds like your strating to do a different art..has your Instructor got strong links to Japan? not meaning to infalme just a honest question.

Gaz.

 

[exile]

One of the guys who trains with us is a prison guard. He was demonstrating the type of attacks the prisoners do. At first it is quite intimidating to see it, even more when the dude looks like "The Rock". We worked on those types of attacks for awhile. It was interesting training to say the least!

David, I for one would be very interested in learning more details of your experience with the kind of training you're alluding to here. In particular, what are the `types of attacks the prisoners do' that you refer to, and what did your group do by way of `working on' those attacks? This is fascinating stuff, and to me represents and imprtant dimension of training which is typically lacking in most dojos/dojangs. Part of the problem is I suspect figuring out how to ramp the level of combat up to a level where it begins to be effective, but where no one actually gets killed. Rubber Tanto's description of what his group does is really intriguing—I've always visualized something like that as being necessary—but I'd like to get a picture of what you were doing in your school...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

LEO's, Corrections Officers, Security Personnel, Bouncers, criminals can really give you a glimpse into what reality can be like. Besides my background in the field. I think it is important to constantly ask people what they have seen and had first hand in experiencing. Unfortuantely real violent encounters are rarely like a cage match, sparrring, etc. They are typically messy, dirty and technically not that pretty. However when training try to be crisp, clean and smooth with your technique because if you have weaknesses in your technique they will only be magnified under stress and the movement of a real life violent encounter.

Good Training Halls typically try to address some of the above in various way's. Some of which might not be very noticeable for a long time.

No matter what keep training and improving. That is something that you have in your grasp to control.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Common sense dictates that you shouldn't go to the ground and grapple with someone with a knife. Well, I have a female colleague who has done just that, with a guy doped up on Rohypnol no less. She seems to have done all right.

BTW, last Wednesday some other colleagues of mine were sprayed with mace while apprehending a suspect. Apparently, that didn't stop them from taking him down.

 

[Bigshadow]

David, I for one would be very interested in learning more details of your experience with the kind of training you're alluding to here.

What I gathered from it, the attacks are often under the guise of friendship and is a surpise encounter from well within reach. It is a violent and rapid stabbing action in very close proximity. Other attacks attempt to close the distance in other manners by jumping around and constantly moving into the space and when close enough to rapidly and violently attack.

To see it at full speed it is quite intimidating. But we would take the attack , slow it down and break it down to it's most basic components of balance, timing, and distance to deal with it. Later speeding it back up.

It is certainly not close to what you would see a trained martial artist do. As Don pointed out, they largely rely on the element of surprise and *I* believe the likelihood of the victim not to be armed plays into the picture too with the total committed brutality of the attack.

 

[Seattletcj]

Now, I would like to ask the following question.

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

Yes. Here are some clips, for starters, that address your concerns.

http://dogbrothersvideo.com/interfacetrailer_large.wmv

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-306340144244288583&q=straight+blast+gym&hl=en

And a good site:

http://www.centerlinegym.com/

So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?

You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.

Ok. How many people are training against john doe tsuki stab? Seriously Don, at least be fair here.
(I have trainied in some excellent knife defense IMO, under my BJK instructors. )

 

[exile]

What I gathered from it, the attacks are often under the guise of friendship and is a surpise encounter from well within reach. It is a violent and rapid stabbing action in very close proximity. Other attacks attempt to close the distance in other manners by jumping around and constantly moving into the space and when close enough to rapidly and violently attack.

To see it at full speed it is quite intimidating. But we would take the attack , slow it down and break it down to it's most basic components of balance, timing, and distance to deal with it. Later speeding it back up.

It is certainly not close to what you would see a trained martial artist do. As Don pointed out, they largely rely on the element of surprise and *I* believe the likelihood of the victim not to be armed plays into the picture too with the total committed brutality of the attack.

I'd really love to be able to see some videos of how you folks analyze the attack and identify the components, and how derail the onslought of attacking moves so that they don't get to build quickly on each other. What you're doing sounds to me like an absolutely key part of the training spectrum that every MA school should include. I have my own thoughts on why they tend not to... but it sounds like you guys, at least, have the right idea.