DWeidman
Blue Belt
For the record -- how long have you been an instructor in the BJK?
I know the answer...
-DW
Realistic Training !!
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For the record -- how long have you been an instructor in the BJK?
I know the answer...
-DW
DWeidman
Blue Belt
Maybe. Kinda depends on the situation, I suppose.
I haven't been told virtually ANYTHING by a Senior in the BJK who I respect about this topic. Anything that was hinted at, however, doesn't bode well for those who think I shouldn't be pressure testing my taijutsu. In fact -- almost all advice I have received (again, from people who *teach* me) has been encouraging in my current endevors.
Yep. Seriously -- you can stop your inward screaming now. Breathe.
I have, on the other hand, heard a LOT from people who know virtually nothing about me -- who love to tell me what I should be doing. And I weigh their advice with what they know about me... and... um...
...well, you can probably guess what I do with it.
-DW
DWeidman
Blue Belt
Hm. This seems reasonable enough... at first.
So. Which *guys*? Or which *guy*?
Everyone here knows the MASSIVE difference between Nagato's taijutsu and Ogouri's. How about Shiraishi and Seno? And that is just in the inner circle of Japan's elite. Shall we extend the circle to include the top-tier westerners who head up their country? How MASSIVELY different are all of them?
Whenever someone brings this point up -- I always ask the same question back -- which one do you want to be like? The fact that there are MANY flavors... means the Hatsumi Sensei is ok with different approaches to his Budo...
Are you in a position to second guess him?
The last time I checked -- Hatsumi hasn't said, "Anyone caught sparring will have their shuriken confiscated and will be thrown out of the BJK forever!"
Funny that.
Perhaps -- like his rank structure / teaching guidelines / international organization (etc, etc, etc) -- he leaves decisions about what to do up to us... Hm...
Funny that as well.
Just my thoughts...
...Not worth much really.
Later -
-DW
No, you are wrong. There is freedom. But before you graduate to be free you need to follow the lessons. There is a difference between the way Oguri and Nagato do things. But on the important points, they are the same. You may not know what those points are, but that does not mean that they are not there. And to say that you can just do anything and call it Bujinkan is just plain wrong. The angle of the kness can mean the difference between good taijutsu and bad taijutsu as well as needing a cane after 20 years of practice.
The devil is in the details. If you can't see the details, you need to get to a point where you can. If you do not understand something, you need to reach an understanding before you start fooling with it. And even if you think you know it, odds are you do not.
The matter of second guessing Hatsumi is an interesting one. I personally think that we should be very cautious about the matter. You only need to look at my rants about the behavior of certain people in Japan to see my message that by the time you are told you are doing something wrong, it is too late. Someone once said that the modern day version of hamon is to merely stop correcting a person when they make mistakes. I have seen something close to this when people will not make an effort to try what the teachers do. They get patted on the back and smiled at, and they are allowed to wallow in their ignorance while the teacher spends his precious time correcting and advising those that follow what he does. This results in a lot of westerners walking away thinking they are doing what the teacher wants them to do, when the truth is they are not worthy of the teacher's time.
When someone whom I am trying to follow the art of does something, that does not neccesarily mean that I should do the same. I may not be qualified yet, nor know the reasons for doing it. And it may be that they abandoned the aspect due to problems. A great example of that is how Takamatsu toughened his hands, only to lose a lot of their use in his golden years.
But when someone I wish to emulate does not do something or has done something and dropped it, I would want to be damn sure I knew why they did so before I fooled with it. It does not matter that they do not openly come out and forbid it, they also have not forbidden me to stick my hand in a meat grinder. I would want to know the reasons in and out before I decided that I knew enough to take it up.
And if you are teaching people using the name Bujinkan, it just seems natural to me to try to copy the ways and means of the top of the Bujinkan as much as possible. There is thinking for yourself. But part of that thinking should be the acknowledgement that we do not know all the answers. So there should be a certain amount of trust and just trying it their way. When we have mastered what they teach we will then be in a position to determine what is relevent and what is not. But unless someone has mastered the lessons, I can't see fooling with the teachings. The art is a whole, and the process is as important as the techniques themselves. If you are a student, you just need to do what they teacher lays out as he lays it out and put off exploring until you get your graduation papers. And if you are a teacher using the Bujinkan name, that goes double- if not more.
Just as a side point- do you honestly think that the seniors in Japan can only do what they do in a controlled enviroment? If so, why bother studying this art at all?
And if you can't do something under a controlled enviroment to the standards they hold, what makes you think you can do it in any other enviroment?
DWeidman
Blue Belt
At what cost though? This is an interesting adjunct to the conversation:
How many techniques work differently today because the practioners don't have the grip and strength in their hands that the practioners of yesteryear would have had? How many strikes can today's student not perform adequately?
I think back to the advice I give students today about mistakes I made. Like -- don't hit a heavy bag as hard as you can on the first punch ever. I nearly broke my wrist. But because of it... I know a lot more about my limitations -- and I *know* how hard I can hit now.
Sometimes you need to burn your hand on the stove.
Just another take...
Hm. Perhaps we are agreeing here... but I think it is more important to represent the art as best you can. This means that sometimes you look at the top tier guys and think, "how did he get to be so good? -- maybe I should do that as well...". That, for the record, may be different than, "I think I should copy his movement..."
Imagine for a moment if you simply "copied" Oguri's movement...
This is self-evidently untrue. If this was the case -- there would be some form of a common process with us all. Most specific instructors have a common process for their students -- but it is a case of major projection to assume that the process you are following is the one that everyone should be...
What do you mean by "graduation papers"?
-DW
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I'm with Daniel on this...sure, I want to learn as much as possible about what the seniors in Japan are teaching. Thing is, because of the level I'm at, I'm currently not very well suited to do that. Ergo, that's not what I'm primarily concerned with at this point in time. Those I do admire that go to Japan and bring back all sorts of cool concepts, I tell sure, that's all wonderful. But let's not forget that there are tons of other stuff it would benefit me even more greatly to have learned BEFORE I venture into all of that. I believe that if more beginners knew what kind of stuff they could expect from Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as a whole, there's no way in hell they'd be content with just learning to move around (what others have referred to as knowing plenty whilst understanding little). What about all the cool Shinden Fudo ryu throws and Takagi Yoshin ryu takedowns? What about hojojutsu? What about kusarifundo and the Kukishinden ryu shinkengata?
One possible answer as to why most people who enroll nowadays aren't taught these things first could be that there's just a too large gap in people's knowledge of these things, and that the reason for this is that people are a bit too eager to head to Japan and emulate advanced teachings. That, however, I don't know for sure, it's all pure speculation.
One possible answer as to why most people who enroll nowadays aren't taught these things first could be that there's just a too large gap in people's knowledge of these things, and that the reason for this is that people are a bit too eager to head to Japan and emulate advanced teachings. That, however, I don't know for sure, it's all pure speculation.
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
Seattletcj
Green Belt
Good question. I am not a shidoshi. Never said I was either.
Just a "naive keyboard warrior"
Nothing to worry about.
BTW here is a clip of me sparring if you have any doubts about my methodology :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA
: )
Are you serious?
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I really have no idea what they can do outside the controlled environment. That would take faith IMO. I do find value in the training and lessons. Just my opinion folks. Dont get too bent out of shape.
We are coming at it from completly different paradigms. I dont believe I can adaquetly explain my POV in a way you can understand or accept, at least not without causing a complete meltdown of the thread. Thats ok though.
Good Luck.
I would appreciate seeing a "good" attack in a Bujinkan video clip as well.
And a good one. But in this case, according to what I was told, Hatsumi was told straight out not to do what Takamatsu did and take a longer time to learn how to use his limbs. Takamatsu needed to learn fast because he lived the life he did. Hatsumi did not. So that is why Hatsumi did not do what Takamatsu did in his earlier years. But of course, you know that I was not there and will take what I say with a grain of salt.
Ah, but if Oguri was to say that he did something in his early days and advised all begginers did it as well, would you not be interested? I have heard from him that he used to practice with stances a lot deeper than he uses now but no longer needs to or is that desirable due to his advanced age. So I think we should not move as he does now in randori, but follow his advice in training.
I have long realized that there is no common process for us for the reason that we are all at different levels of understanding and abilities as well as the attitudes we show and the chances we have. But even though Hatsumi will not forbid something or tell us straight out what we will do, there is enough to figure out what we should be doing IMO.
You know that Hatsumi has said on many occasions that he is teaching for the judan level and above. Whatever else you may think about that statement, I think we can agree that people should not just show up and expect basics to be shown to them in his classes. But you also know that no Bujkinkan member in good standing is ever turned away from his training. So even though he gives advice that means to me that white belts shoud go to the shihan or others to learn basics, you can see many white belts now at his training. I think this shows that the message of what you should be doing is no secret, but no one is going to force you to make the right choice. And in the same way, the senior shihan will tell you if you have the proper attitude what they did in the beggining and what they think you need to do to get better. But there will be no compulsion. If you do not try to do what they want, they will not waste their time trying to correct you.
I would be satisfied with someone like Hatsumi advising us to do something like sparring or adding things to the art rather than deciding on our own. If he does not tell us to do something, I would be leary of doing it unless I knew I had some information or experience he did not have. I know I do not have all the answers about taijutsu or the reasons behind what we do. It is not the things I know about that worries me, it is the stuff that I do not even know that I do not know about that makes the thought of fooling with the path laid out by Hatsumi so scary.
DWeidman
Blue Belt
For the record -- I am not advocating breaking pebbles with your fingertips (until they bleed). I was just using that as an example of the unknown effects a simple choice can make (often unnoticed by the person doing the advising).
Of course! I am interested in everyone's approach -- and the explanation that goes along with it is more valuable then the advice.
Due to your proximity / relationship to the man -- I can understand this.
I will let you guess how many times Hatsumi and I have headed over to a restaurant after class -- because it has been awhile since he saw me and wanted to catch up on what is going on in my life... His direct -- dedicated -- focused attention on me can be counted in the single digit minutes. As such -- I suffer no illusions about "personal student of... blah blah blah". Instead, I carry on the way I think I should -- under the watchful eye of those who I trust and see on a regular basis.
This involves being responsible for my own decisions -- both good and bad. Just like life... actually.
My .02.
-DW
Which weapon are you using in the video? It would help to put a face to a name.
-ben
I think he was making a joke, hence the smiley face right after the link.
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