Realistic Training !!

[Bigshadow]

I'd really love to be able to see some videos of how you folks analyze the attack and identify the components, and how derail the onslought of attacking moves so that they don't get to build quickly on each other. What you're doing sounds to me like an absolutely key part of the training spectrum that every MA school should include. I have my own thoughts on why they tend not to... but it sounds like you guys, at least, have the right idea.

We rarely video tape our training. Mostly to send to our senior instructor in Japan to review. IMO, after analyzing it, it still boils down to balance, distance/space, and timing, the manipulation of these three things. Just my opinions based on where I am at with my training and it is subject to change without notice.

 

[exile]

We rarely video tape our training. Mostly to send to our senior instructor in Japan to review. IMO, after analyzing it, it still boils down to balance, distance/space, and timing, the manipulation of these three things. Just my opinions based on where I am at with my training and it is subject to change without notice.

It's good to think about this stuff. The business you mentioned about the use of false signals to get inside the intended victims protective perimeter is really, really important—basically, you have to have your wits about you and your instinct for trouble in top condition, to detect any anomalies in others' behavior that could be a tip-off to planned violence. If you're on your guard and forcefully preserve that perimeter, you might well derail the planned attack right there. But it's hard to maintain a worst-case, red-alert level of awareness all the time, for sure...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Exile and Bigshadow all of the above is good stuff that you are posting. Awareness and the ability to feel what is going on around you is very, very important. Then having an idea how the common untrained man moves and or a criminal might use a blade, shank etc. can only give you a bit of advantage if you are ever unfortuantley caught in that situation.

 

[exile]

Exile and Bigshadow all of the above is good stuff that you are posting. Awareness and the ability to feel what is going on around you is very, very important. Then having an idea how the common untrained man moves and or a criminal might use a blade, shank etc. can only give you a bit of advantage if you are ever unfortuantley caught in that situation.

Brian, this is why I think the approach to the MAs that you take in IRT (I've scoped out your IRT site several times) is so on-target. The best skills in the world aren't of any use if you're not able to mobilize them in the super-urgent fashion that a violent street attack requires of you. As you know, I'm a big fan of training kata-based techs and the like under super-realistic interpretations of the movements—but that's only half of the survival recipe! The old master karateka and their Korean and Chinese analogues could leave us clues in the forms to what to do, but what they obviously couldn't do is leave us physical evidence of their combat mindset, their ways of thinking through the environmental hazards and opportunities in every potentially dangerous situation, and the like. What I like about the way you guys at IRT operate is that you recognize that that kind of thinking is at least as important to survival as the techs involved, probably more so.

That's why, I have to say, I don't find arguments about the relative effectiveness various TMAs, (or of TMAs vs. MMAs, or whatever) to be the really important debates. What is far more important is the issue of how to mentally gird yourself to bring the skills you do have to bear, to make the adrenaline burst that typically precedes a real survival combat situation work for you, or at least work with you, and how to become the predator in that situation instead of the prey that your assailant sees you as being. Would love to train some with you guys on this stuff someday!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Brian, this is why I think the approach to the MAs that you take in IRT (I've scoped out your IRT site several times) is so on-target. The best skills in the world aren't of any use if you're not able to mobilize them in the super-urgent fashion that a violent street attack requires of you. As you know, I'm a big fan of training kata-based techs and the like under super-realistic interpretations of the movements—but that's only half of the survival recipe! The old master karateka and their Korean and Chinese analogues could leave us clues in the forms to what to do, but what they obviously couldn't do is leave us physical evidence of their combat mindset, their ways of thinking through the environmental hazards and opportunities in every potentially dangerous situation, and the like. What I like about the way you guys at IRT operate is that you recognize that that kind of thinking is at least as important to survival as the techs involved, probably more so.

That's why, I have to say, I don't find arguments about the relative effectiveness various TMAs, (or of TMAs vs. MMAs, or whatever) to be the really important debates. What is far more important is the issue of how to mentally gird yourself to bring the skills you do have to bear, to make the adrenaline burst that typically precedes a real survival combat situation work for you, or at least work with you, and how to become the predator in that situation instead of the prey that your assailant sees you as being. Would love to train some with you guys on this stuff someday!

Mutual admiration goes both ways my friend. I would like to train with you in the future as well. Who knows I may be down your way sometime soon and we can get together to train.

I am planning on coming to a combat hapkido seminar sponsored by Father Greek and Drac this May. Maybe we can all meet and have a drink together then.

 

[exile]

Mutual admiration goes both ways my friend. I would like to train with you in the future as well. Who knows I may be down your way sometime soon and we can get together to train.

I am planning on coming to a combat hapkido seminar sponsored by Father Greek and Drac this May. Maybe we can all meet and have a drink together then.

The May gig, Brian, with John Pellegrini? Yes, I'm planning to go to that (have already been given the green light by my wife to attend, nothing can now prevent me!! ). Definitely, we will meet, train and have that drink together—this is excellent!

 

[seansnyder]

Bottom line realy Nick, if you want to get good at our art then you take directions from the Japanese seniors, it being a Japanese art and all that.

Really is a no brainer and i'm surprised you said it...

Wow that's ballsie a statement

The best practioners of this Art tend to be those who are either Japanese, reside there or have very close links.

What is your definition to close links: 1 visit per year, 2 visits per year, dinner with Hatsumi nightly.....??? Wait, did I not read the bottom statement...............

Of course there are those that visit but there not the ones i'm on about.

Really, why?


Sean Snyder

 

[Bigshadow]

But it's hard to maintain a worst-case, red-alert level of awareness all the time, for sure...

IMO, I really don't think it is necessary to be constantly on that red-alert level of awareness. I firmly believe that if you relax and just enjoy life (but be aware, but relaxed), your senses will alarm you when the time comes. I think to go about constantly on guard stifles those signals and feelings and it is counter productive to what is real and what is not. Just my opinions.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Really sounds like your strating to do a different art..

Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?

Nimravus just said that Shihan in Japan use Randori. Other seniors from Japan have told me that at least one shihan has some drills that are very similar to what we refer to as pressure testing. If this is correct, then why is it that because my dojo does it as part of its syllabus it makes it a different art?

Has your Instructor got strong links to Japan?

Yes he had but he has not been in a few years as our school has many students (almost 150 juniors and 80 adults) and some seniors have had to postpone their training due to new employment, moving to different state etc... He is also currently suffering from an injury which is hindering him.

On the travel to Japan part. Last year I had a choice to travel on business to Japan on a buying trip or to Hong Kong China to attend a fair. I asked some people if it was a good idea to go to train in Japan. I was told that anything under nidan was kind of a waste of time, just taking up valuable space as I won't "get" what Soke is teaching. He is now at the stage where he shows "feelings" and "concepts of movement" for the seniors to learn, understand and filter down to their students. That is what I was told. That for me to go there, I would not understand any of this as I am not at that stage of my training yet.

I have no problem with that. In fact it makes perfect sense to me.

But then I notice that if I ask a question of my sensei, he will shopw me the answer where possible. If I ask a question of some people on forum I am just told that because I have not been to japan I don't get it. Well sure, I haven't been, so that's why I'm asking.

I think its all the people always knocking me withat comment has actually put me off wanting to go to japan to train. I worry that maybe one day if I go to Japan, I will come back and when a white belt says something like "so why do we do this in this way" instead of explaining to him a reason and showing him, I'll roll my eyes and a) punch him to the floor (as Ben has suggested it is done in Japan), b) tell him to shut up and train because he just doesn't get it or c) say that until he goes to Japan himself he will never understand.

All that I am talking about here is peoples attitude. Why many of you convert an opinion against certain peoples attitudes and certain people's training methods as a hatred or alteration of this martial arts delivery system confuses me.

Oh well.

But having said that. There are some people in the BJK that I find to be an inspiration. Dale, Shinbushi, DWeidman, Seatle, Muqatil, Sean, Shane Obrien, Tim Bathurst, Craig, Ed Lomax and many others.

So please don't try and turn my comments into an RT hates the BJK attack. And please I hope the question on my sensei is not an attempt to turn it into a "your sensei doesn'ty get it" attack. That would be way too shallow and besides, I get enough PMs from the people I respect and the many others of my rank and higher in the BJK that tells me I am not wrong in my way of thinking.

Yes, surprise surprise even people training in Japan.
~Nick

 

[saru1968]

My answers in Red.

Wow that's ballsie a statement

Not really, common sense the more distant one is from the centre the less one sees, the more diluted it becomes. You can't tell me that someone who has no contact with others who regularly go or has been in the last few years will be more 'in tune' that those that do.


What is your definition to close links: 1 visit per year, 2 visits per year, dinner with Hatsumi nightly.....??? Wait, did I not read the bottom statement...............

Close links, as in regular contact with and with people in the flow of information/training from Honbu.


Really, why?

You want to discuss people that go to further there grades rather than their understanding? I don't.


Sean Snyder

 

[saru1968]

Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?

Nimravus just said that Shihan in Japan use Randori. Other seniors from Japan have told me that at least one shihan has some drills that are very similar to what we refer to as pressure testing. If this is correct, then why is it that because my dojo does it as part of its syllabus it makes it a different art?



~Nick

I see randori and sparring as different creatures with different mindsets, as per the Japan trip there are the various Shihan to train with aswell as Soke. I certainly got more from the latter.

And in no way was i making a slight on your Instructor, just asking a question.

But i can see no useful purpose in continuing this dialogue.

 

[Rook]

Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?

Much of this thread has been devoted to the idea that BBT and taking information and lessons from application are apparently incompatible. I don't think you are likely to change the minds of the people on this thread, who have largely decided that faith in a certain group of other people supercedes all else.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I originally posted the messages below in the belief that there would be an end to these kinds of discussions, at least in this particular forum. Silly me.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=455191&postcount=1

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=543263&postcount=65

 

[Rook]

Now, I would like to ask the following question.

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in?

Yes.

How about multiple opponents?

Drilled in many MMA training halls.

Have you ever even heard of the jackknife?

Yes.

(Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

Do you have a link?

Marc MacYoung makes a very simple, but true statement, that an enraged drunk will attack like an enraged drunk and not a trained martial artist.

So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?

Delt with it in the real world, training held up fine. If anything, people with no mind to defense are much easily to deal with.

You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.

Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor. Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker. It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity.

 

[MJS]

Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor. Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker. It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity.

Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.

 

[Rook]

Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.

No, it really can't be. You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos. Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

that is unless you work with complete wackos.

They show up sometimes as well.

 

[MJS]

No, it really can't be. You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos. Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.

Ok, thanks. So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?

 

[Rook]

Ok, thanks. So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?

Which isn't at all possible?

Its possible to train against knives.

I think that it is highly improbable that a person trains against the type of unstable aggression that some people who are mentally off will have. Several of the people at my old karate dojo, two who formerly did corrections and one that was a narcontics agent were of the opinion that nothing that they could do would simulate the type of psycotic rage that they had seen from some of the people they had delt with. I really have seen nothing to convince me that they were wrong.

 

[MJS]

Which isn't at all possible?

You made this comment:

Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor. Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker. It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity

I stated:

Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.

You replied:

No, it really can't be. You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos. Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.

I commented:

Ok, thanks. So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?

Its possible to train against knives.

I think that it is highly improbable that a person trains against the type of unstable aggression that some people who are mentally off will have. Several of the people at my old karate dojo, two who formerly did corrections and one that was a narcontics agent were of the opinion that nothing that they could do would simulate the type of psycotic rage that they had seen from some of the people they had delt with. I really have seen nothing to convince me that they were wrong.[/quote]


That was pretty much it dude. Nothing hidden in my comment, just wanted to clarify what you were saying.

Thanks,

Mike