real life self defense techniques

[hardheadjarhead]

Dont forget though that every big Tank Abbott looking dude is going to have the fighting expereince that Tank does.

Going into a self defense situation, it is possible we won't know the level of the person's training. It is quite possible the person we face will be a totally unknown entity, and what we can see of the person is the only data available on the aggressor.

On the other hand, we might actually know a great deal about this person. He might be the psychotic "ex" of the woman we're dating, or one of her family members, or a guy who has been stalking her. It might be a local guy whom people chat about constantly and whom we're quite familiar with. It might be a person we grew up with.

It would be in error to assume he's untrained simply because he's a "bad guy". I met a rather big (compared to me) guy about thirteen years ago who was freshly released from the Michigan City Maximum Security Prison...he'd just done six years for aggravated assault. He spent a huge amount of time in there training in the martial arts. He's not the first sociopath I'd ever met...but possibly the most frightening. I learned a great deal from talking with him. He was friendly, charming, ruthless and psychotic. I stayed on his good side during our talk. I've NEVER had such a visceral response to anyone in my life.

She has no problem fighting someone bigger be it standing or grappling. And I'll tell you another thing. I would be more than happy to have her have my back in a fight over some males fighters that I know!!

I can think of a number of women that fit that category, too. Debbie Purcell quickly jumps to mind.

We can all think come up with women in the MA who are notable fighters with incredible skills. But I wouldn't make a blanket statement for them, or anyone, regarding their skills in self defense.

We could beat this to death...and are in the process of doing so. Back to topic.

Somebody throw out a specific scenario for "real life self defense techniques". Let's address that.

Regards,


Steve

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Steve et al:

I didn't want to belabor a point as it seems there is a certain direction to this string. However, just as a side light I was wondering what people thought of using fractures in self-defense. The elbows, knees, clavicle and jaw are well-known fracture sites and fractures of the knee and clavicle are particularly well-known for stopping or greatly reducing the fighting capability of an opponent. All the same it seems that most discussion of S-D seem to focus more on pressure points (eyes, ears, groin etc.) than on strike points. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Bruce,

Sure...fracturing certain bones will take the wind out of their sails. I wouldn't expect the jaw to fracture easily (hitting it is the issue), or once fractured, to be that limiting.

Joints that effect mobility of limbs would be better targets, provided they were destroyed and displaced. The clavicle might be a good target...but again the nature of the break is in question. I served with a guy who went through OCS with a broken clavicle...every night he did fifty pull ups before bed. The break wasn't severe or displaced. At the time I had a broken fibula. I couldn't jump with it...but I could run and walk on it without pain. Again, the bone wasn't displaced. Displace the bone on a supporting limb like the leg and you can get a compound fracture. Displace it on something like the arm and moving the arm is nearly impossible.

A freak on PCP might be able to do something with the arm...I don't know.


Regards,


Steve

 

[glad2bhere]

Right on the money! Yes, displacement is the key. In fact, as I was reading your post I remembered a MPEG clip that was very popular sometime back showing an encounter in the ring in which the camera caught the instant at which one FC fighter executed a shin-kick to the calf of his opponent fx-ing the leg. What brought on the quesiness for me was actually seeing the leg below the knee swing 90 degrees off the axis of the upper leg. As I remember, I believe the fight was stopped.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Bruce,

Sure...fracturing certain bones will take the wind out of their sails. I wouldn't expect the jaw to fracture easily (hitting it is the issue), or once fractured, to be that limiting.

Joints that effect mobility of limbs would be better targets, provided they were destroyed and displaced. The clavicle might be a good target...but again the nature of the break is in question. I served with a guy who went through OCS with a broken clavicle...every night he did fifty pull ups before bed. The break wasn't severe or displaced. At the time I had a broken fibula. I couldn't jump with it...but I could run and walk on it without pain. Again, the bone wasn't displaced. Displace the bone on a supporting limb like the leg and you can get a compound fracture. Displace it on something like the arm and moving the arm is nearly impossible.

A freak on PCP might be able to do something with the arm...I don't know.


Regards,


Steve

I would tend to think that depending on what you do, that sooner or later the effects will be felt. If you are close enough to hit the eyes, you cant honestly tell me that he isnt going to feel the results? I dont care what hes on, you will get a reaction.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

leg below the knee swing 90 degrees off the axis of the upper leg. As I remember, I believe the fight was stopped

That was a really gross video. Makes one a leeeeetle leery of throwing a round kick. His lower leg literally wrapped around the guy's leg shield. Apparently he wasn't quite aware of the damage, as he attempted to put his weight onto the broken leg. Yeah...that was a fight stopper.

I would tend to think that depending on what you do, that sooner or later the effects will be felt. If you are close enough to hit the eyes, you cant honestly tell me that he isnt going to feel the results? I dont care what hes on, you will get a reaction.

A reaction? Not necessarily.

Psychotic methamphetamine addict here in Indiana took a knife and calmly peeled off his own face, feeding it to his dog.

Psychotic methamphetamine addict in Australia cut off his toes, fried them, ate some of them in a sandwich, and cheerfully offered the remnants to EMS crews when they arrived on the scene to treat him.

PCP freak in Los Angeles murders his parents and starts to cannabalize them. Officers arriving are attacked by him, and they shoot him a half dozen times center mass. He then calmly sits down on the couch. He lives. Once he comes out of it he realizes what he's done to his parents and goes insane.

PCP freak in Navy Regional Medical Center rips out of a straitjacket and restraints that hold him to the bed, and then takes surgical scissors and stabs several patients and a television set. The Marine Gunny on duty shoots him five times in the chest. The guy gets a hurt look on his face as if the Gunny had called him a bad name. He sits down. He lives 24 hours.


Granted the second two stories indicate the guns had an effect, albeit not a dramatic one.

The first story was reported on the internet...an Australian newspaper. The second story was related to me by an Indiana State trooper who was familiar with the case. The third and fourth stories were told me by a Captain in the USMC that was one of the senior Drug and Alcohol Abuse Control Officers for the 1st Marine Division.

The point here is that certain narcotics have an incredible painkilling effect. The person on PCP or in the throes of methamphetamine psychosis doesn't register pain like we do, if they do at all.

Another story: Pat Rogers, a combat hand gunnery and carbine instructor at Gunsite tells of a small man in New York, weight 115 pounds, height of 5'2" who took a #00 shotgun blast center mass from six feet away...along with five thirty eight rounds peppered around that very big hole. The man simply looked at the officers and growled at them. He lived two hours. I have no idea how they subdued him, nor do I know if he was on drugs or merely enraged. It ties in with the other stories in that he didn't go down or show an immediate reaction to the pain of being shot.

Rogers himself shot a North Vietnamese soldier in the chest THREE times with a 7.62 M-14. The guy kept getting back up after each shot, finally staying down with the third. Each time he got up he attempted to shoot Pat.





Regards,


Steve

 

[MJS]

As for the reaction. Someone mentioned groin kicks, and how the attacker is usually pretty good at protecting himself. Ok. When that kick is thrown, the other person will do something to defend himself, chances are, he'll scoot back a little and maybe lean forward. By doing this, his face is a perfect target. Then again, thinking that the groin kick is going to be the end of the fight is a dream. Why stop there? Continue with your own assault. Something is bound to get in.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not everybody that you're gonna face is gonna be strung out of drugs. Many muggings, robberies, etc. are done by people who themselves are addicts. What makes anyone think that they'll be on something during the act??

As for the drugs. Basically you're saying that by taking PCP, you can become a superman, not being fazed by anything??

Mike

 

[Marginal]

http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?b79697484

Dunno if that was PCP induced, but I don't think any kinda debating's (verbally or physically) going to amount to much in the face of someone that addled by a drug.

Speaking of bad SD situations... How about a junkie with a needle full of his own blood demanding your wallet? Seems like a nasty situation to try fighting out of.

 

[Thesemindz]

Marginal dude, you coulda worned us.



Yah, I pretty much beleive that a person on a sufficient amount of drugs is a superman. Period. He won't live for ever, but he won't think, and he won't feel pain, and he won't stop.

I think you probably have to do significant bone damage here. The opponent will most likely not feel it, but he will be slowed. The same basic logic applies. If he can't walk, he can't fight.

Now let's be serious, how many cases like this are there? How many of us will be attacked by one of these people? Maybe many, but not alot. I think it's valuable to consider what to do against someone like this, but this is probably not going to be the "usual" self-defense scenario. Most of the crimes I've known of have been alcohol induced or geographical in nature, ie. alleyway ambushes or robbing the pizza guy.

I know what I'd do if I had to defend myself against someone like this, but I certainly hope I never have to.

-Rob

 

[Nick Ellerton]

OK first of all dude i have got all the respect in the world for what you do ok but look at it realistically, because at this point in time ur clearly not! Whats one thing you need to execute a kick? Space and ur talking about three kicks being affective. If that space is cut off how do you execute the kick? You cannot execute a roundhouse kick if ur attacker has got you in a headlock. And as far as tkd applying real life sd techniques i dont mean to be blunt but its sport karate man, sport karate. so if in a sporting environment then yeah go for gold theyll probably work but out there in the big bad world i think try to find an educated fighter to whom will give you the space to throw a kick.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And as far as tkd applying real life sd techniques i dont mean to be blunt but its sport karate man, sport karate.

We went on and on about this with our old friend "Hapkibujutsu", who is now thankfully gone from this forum (at least, we think so...we shall be ever vigilant for his return under another name).

Not all TKD schools practice Olympic TKD exclusively. Many focus on self defense.

Your criticism of the kick against a headlock is well founded. For a woman, the majority of attacks take place when the aggressor has charmed and conned his way into arms reach...he then grabs or punches her. Kicks at that range likely aren't going to happen.

A male on male assault might take place in a similar way, wherein the guy works his way in with a ruse and then moves from a close range with a sucker punch, a grab, whatever. Thus, kicks to the head and chest, as advocated by some TKD stylists here, might never have a point to where they can be worked into a confrontation.

A good TKD school will address this situation properly. Many do address it.

As for drugs inducing a "Superman" effect-not always, perhaps, but quite often. I don't know. "Dusters", as PCP users are called, have a reputation for being strong and resistant to pain. LEO's on this forum can confirm or deny it, I suppose.

Something like that is a worst case scenario, and not likely to happen to most of us. But we ought to anticipate worst case scenarios, correct?

Regards,


Steve

 

[MJS]

You're right Steve. Ok, lets change the topic just a little, seeing that we're talking about the effects of drugs on the body. If by chance, we did come across someone like this, what would be the best thing to do? I mean, if kicking the groin is gonna make this guy laugh, and if the other one you mentioned got shot multiple times and just sat there, what else is there to do?

I've talked about using as much force as whats used against you, so as to avoid a law suit, but if this guy is that strung out, and nothing you seem to be doing is working, then I would think that the only other option is death....and hopefully it will be the other guy and not you.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

what would be the best thing to do? I mean, if kicking the groin is gonna make this guy laugh, and if the other one you mentioned got shot multiple times and just sat there, what else is there to do?

While a choke might work on someone who is on such drugs, it might not be achievable for some people. Blinding him by attacking the eyes might be the best thing.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Nick Ellerton
OK first of all dude i have got all the respect in the world for what you do ok but look at it realistically, because at this point in time ur clearly not! Whats one thing you need to execute a kick? Space and ur talking about three kicks being affective.

Most people will say that it depends on the situation. Effectiveness stems from there, not thinking "doode. im totally gonna break his base then take his back when he gets me into a headlock."

And as far as tkd applying real life sd techniques i dont mean to be blunt but its sport karate man, sport karate. so if in a sporting environment then yeah go for gold theyll probably work but out there in the big bad world i think try to find an educated fighter to whom will give you the space to throw a kick.

Oddly, kicks still get thrown in MMA competitions. Must be because they're utterly useless eh?

 

[glad2bhere]

I know people mean well but I wonder if we are making too much of these stories about guys on Meth. Unless I am a person in, say, law enforcement or security, which greatly increases the probability and frequency of running into such people, I don't know that the average person is going to have such an experience. Further, I think its safe to say that if an individual can take gross trauma to vital organs and not defer to those injuries, there is little a person without a weapon is going to be able to do. Originally I was hearing the matter of size being a concern and I still hold that size can be dealt with if the defender is willing and able to use their training to its best effect. As I was reading the posts on Meth, I remembered that even the Bezerkers of the Scandanavian traditions could scare the hell out of their battlefield opponents by being able to take considerable damage. The same goes for quite a number of warrior groups from around the world who used hypnotic practices and herbs to desensitize themselves to wounding. I am all for discussing the difficulties of dealing with a committed, even homocidal attack, but I think we step across a line when we start discussing drug-crazed attackers as though they are on every street corner. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MJS]

Bruce- I agree with what you said. There are robberies, assaults, etc. everyday, and I really dont think that every one of those is committed by someone high on drugs. I think that you'd have a better chance of facing someone with a gun or knife than you would coming across someone on PCP.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

There are robberies, assaults, etc. everyday, and I really dont think that every one of those is committed by someone high on drugs. I think that you'd have a better chance of facing someone with a gun or knife than you would coming across someone on PCP.

True, the chances of one of us facing such an attacker are slim, I suppose. The chances of one of us facing a 285 pound, 6'3" attacker aren't all that good, either. We can bank on the odds being in our favor.

BUT...

We need to understand that those rather unique individuals exist. Its something to think about and keep in the back of our minds.


Regards,


Steve

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"......I think that you'd have a better chance of facing someone with a gun or knife than you would coming across someone on PCP....."

Thats my thought, as well. I don't say that drug-crazed nutcases aren't out there, but it would be a lot more common, I think, to have some Little League father/mother lose it at a game and pick-up a baseball bat, or a spectator at a meet pickup a folding chair, or have an altercation on an expressway shoulder that includes a tire iron. And let me say one more time, I don't pretend that size, adrenilin, and drink don't often factor in there, its just that when I think of S-D I think more in terms of some really BAD choices some idiot makes whose problems I do not want to have made MY problems. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I think, to have some Little League father/mother lose it at a game and pick-up a baseball bat

Good point there. Having been to those games, I'd say that is actually very likely. There is nothing worse in our supposedly civilized society than some of those Little League parents. Unless it would be some of the parents I've seen at martial arts tournaments. All social decorum and sportsmanship goes out the window when it involves our Little Johnny's glory. Yuck.

Did anybody see the video of that ruckus from about a year ago where a Dad and his brother started beating up on some football coaches and other parents? California, I think....

It shows that even middle class America has its thugs.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
There is nothing worse in our supposedly civilized society than some of those Little League parents. Unless it would be some of the parents I've seen at martial arts tournaments.

According to my friends who have been referees, soccer and hockey parents are the worst.

I agree with what's been said so far about groin kicks not being guaranteed effective, but what about kicks to the knee?

The knee is a pretty vital joint as far as mobility goes. I realize that merely causing pain in someone's knee won't neccessarily stop them, but if you break or dislocate the joint, even someone in a drug-induced psycosis is going to have a hard time running after you. (Assuming that escaping danger is your ultimate goal.) Does anyone think that this is not a reliable tactic for self-defense?