Real aikido street fight

[RoninX]

Aikido has many ways, and depending on person and style atemi will differ. I've done styles without atemi, and styles with alot of atemi.

You state that most of the techniques imply to catch the arm.. nope is my answer to that. If that is what you got from training aikido, your barking up the wrong tree. Aikido doesn't imply.

/Terje

Nope? Ok. Because that´s what i´ve always saw Aikidoka doing: Catching arms in movement. Your style must be different.

 

[Tanaka]

Nope? Ok. Because that´s what i´ve always saw Aikidoka doing: Catching arms in movement. Your style must be different.

That's because you're probably watching the Aikidoka work on the technique... Not mimic what he would do in a real encounter.

Tomiki Aikido has tons of sparring btw.

 

[fangjian]

That's because you're probably watching the Aikidoka work on the technique... Not mimic what he would do in a real encounter.

Tomiki Aikido has tons of sparring btw.

What about Aikido in general? Disregard whatever they do in the school of Tomiki.

You never see people question what they do in Muay Thai or Sanda, and then those Muay Thai people say 'Oh well the southern school of Muay Thai....they spar....

That's because there's generally a bit of consistency with those arts. Is there a lot of inconsistency with all of the schools of Aikido?

When I did Aikido, after a year or two of solid foundation, when we randori, it was no joke. When you were surrounded by multiple people, if you had a good foundation, they were not feeding you gentle shomenuchi strikes. If you didn't move or defend properly, you got RUN OVER.

Don't get me wrong I am critical of all styles. But to all of the mainstream combat styles like Muay Thai, Bjj, etc. , I highly recommend to you to practice the randori that I experienced in Aikido. Sparring with one other person has great value. But the randori I experienced in Aikido has great value too.

Do most Aikido schools still train this way?

 

[Tanaka]

What about Aikido in general? Disregard whatever they do in the school of Tomiki.

You never see people question what they do in Muay Thai or Sanda, and then those Muay Thai people say 'Oh well the southern school of Muay Thai....they spar....

That's because there's generally a bit of consistency with those arts. Is there a lot of inconsistency with all of the schools of Aikido?

When I did Aikido, after a year or two of solid foundation, when we randori, it was no joke. When you were surrounded by multiple people, if you had a good foundation, they were not feeding you gentle shomenuchi strikes. If you didn't move or defend properly, you got RUN OVER.

Don't get me wrong I am critical of all styles. But to all of the mainstream combat styles like Muay Thai, Bjj, etc. , I highly recommend to you to practice the randori that I experienced in Aikido. Sparring with one other person has great value. But the randori I experienced in Aikido has great value too.

Do most Aikido schools still train this way?

Yes I know about what you are talking about, because my uncle is Aikidoka. He tells me stories about how horrible randori sessions were. He told me one time he got injured ribs and jaw. He told me those guys were serious when they did the multiple attacker randori exercise. Especially when you test for black belt you may have people of higher rank attacking you.

 

[fangjian]

Yes I know about what you are talking about, because my uncle is Aikidoka. He tells me stories about how horrible randori sessions were. He told me one time he got injured ribs and jaw. He told me those guys were serious when they did the multiple attacker randori exercise. Especially when you test for black belt you may have people of higher rank attacking you.

Haha. Yes. If you had a good foundation, they won't go easy on you.



I've always thought that the most important range to be proficient in, is the clinch. If you partner or enemy is worried about their own balance they will not be attacking anything.
When you look at a certain martial art you kind of judge what range they're good at. Judo is good at clinching, Muay Thai is good at Kickboxing/Clinching, ................

What is Aikido 'good at' ?
I've always thought Aikido was good at Awareness. At least when I was training, my sensei instilled in me, not to focus on this one person you are working with ( since sometimes attacks would come from multiple directions) . So, Aikido taught me awareness of ambush type of attacks. Which is how it often goes down for real.

I must admit though. The attacks and techniques used seem a bit peculiar. When I use to train, we would use attacks like haymakers, tackling, etc. along with the more traditional types. But when I watch most Aikido videos it's all about telegraphed shomenuchi and stuff.
Even when I was grabbed by someone they were not just standing there, they were actually applying 'yonkyo' and pile-driving me into the mat if I didn't do anything. *ouch*

Anyone have a link to an old thread or anything about why these attacks are use with such prevalence? Many other martial artist don't 'get it'. * me included *

 

[Aiki Lee]

RoninX, some kata that look like they wouldn't work against a real attack might be because not all kata in aikido or other martial arts are about the simulation of a fight. The technique you might be seeing may be teaching a concept that could be used in fighting but the way it is transmited is not necessarily the way it would look in a confrontation.

Some aikidoka are not efficient, but then so are some karateka, MMA practitioners, judoka, boxers and whatever. All styles of martial arts have lousy practitioners when you look for them.

Aiki principles are extremely useful for self defense, but like anything else you must train diligently in them.

 

[K-man]

As far as different styles of Aikido are concerned, it depends on when the teacher trained with Ueshiba Sensei. Up until the war, aikido was really quite violent as it derived from Daito Ryu Jujutsu. Ueshiba was trained by Takeda Sokaku as was one of his most notable students, Koichi Tohei. Any style of aikido from this stage of Aikido's development will look very different to the more esoteric later style when Ueshiba was heavily involved in Omoto Kyu religion. So, if you train Aikikai under Ueshiba's family line, then you probably won't train atemi. If you train a style that developed earlier, like we do, you will use all the strikes that you would use in another art such as Okinawan karate. We also train against total resistance.

Because the majority of aikido is probably Aikikai, most people would not be exposed to other styles. Tomiki Aikido was mentioned earlier. It is an earlier style. Saito style is post war. As such it is quite valid to describe different styles of aikido as it is to describe different styles of karate. (For example, Japanese Goju Kai karate and Okinawan Goju Ryu karate have the same origin and still have similarities but are totally different in application.) :asian:

 

[K-man]

I´m sorry, but this is not how you train in Aikido. In Aikido your mindset isn´t prepared to use Atemi in the way you described. Plus, is there any evidence that adding Atemi the technique would wok? Most of these techniques seem to imply that to have to catch uke´s arm or wrist in movement. How exactly would this work with atemi? You hit first and then you try to grab the wrist? Even with your small half second distraction i see no reason why someone wouldn´t be able to resist.

Having just hit the wrong button, after a very long reply I am not in the best frame of mind.

The attitude in the post hasn't helped my mood in the slightest. I feel I need to post the original because often (or almost always) the reply bears no reference to the issue.

Sparring is good way of training. But what you fail to realize when you were doing your wristlock drills is this... Those wristlocks would have been follow ups to atemi. Atemi is the great equalizer... it is a distraction. Doesn't even have to hurt that much, it can even be a slap. Now the issue here is that when you do the atemi they are distracted for a short time at which you would have to apply the wristlock VERY fast and to the point.

My mindset as a karateka or an aikidoka is;
Number 1 = Evade (Tsabaki)
Number 2 = Strike (Atemi)
Number 3 = Control or destroy.

That works for me! What is it about that simple sequence that fails to compute? Now something as simple as this common to karate or most other styles of MA. Now I ask you a question. If as a karateka I hit you hard in the throat, let's say as a knife hand (banned in MMA by the way), is it likely to be effective? In karate we'll call it shuto uchi.

If you say 'no' then we have a problem Houston! Thirty odd years of training totally wasted. :shrug:

If you say yes, I now put on my Aikido gi, and perform the same strike as before. BTW that's Atemi and in aikido we practise a lot of yokomen-uchi. Obviously it is not effective because aikido is not effective, right? :erg:

Now as a karateka I may or may not be skilled at grappling and applying locks so as a karateka I will just hit him again.

As an aikidoka, I'll just go for the arm bar and either control him or destroy a joint if I choose.

Either way, Goodnight Irene! (sorry Tez

)

And I don't believe in sparring as such but I'll address that later. I'm talking close quarters here. :asian:

 

[K-man]

My post:

That wasn't 'someone', that was me and you chose to ignore all my questions and my comments on the different techniques.

And your quote of Bas Ruten was also liberal with the truth.

Your reply:

Yeah. Bas Rutten saying most of what you train won´t work. Yes, because in case you haven´t noticed, what people do in Aikido is exactly what he is talking about.

Again, you didn't comment on the techniques in the original vid I posted. And, you didn't hear what Bas said in the vid you posted!

I'll spell it out for you. The question was "Aikido seems to have some useful and seemingly effective techniques for grappling and takedowns. Why don't you see these utilised in MMA?"

This question relates to cage fighting, not street defence but we'll let that pass for the moment. What does Bas actually say? " .... and, I'm sure there's moves that really work at close distance like those wrist locks, ... of course they've got moves that work, ..." Then he goes on about not being able to catch punches and against MMA fighters that would be pretty impossible." ... and that's why you don't see many aikido guys in the cage. They'd have to really change their style ... at close distance they might pull off some submissions but otherwise it's going to be very difficult."

Bas Ruten DID NOT say what you said he said. You have totally misrepresented him to suit yourself.

 

[K-man]

You said:

Sparring should represent at least 40% of the total training.
Any martial art who doesn´t do sparring sessions on a regular basis should not claim effectiveness.

I said:

No problem with the first part, that is an opinion you can state.
The second part is your comment that is IMHO and many of the others, wrong. If you are into a 'sport' martial art you would spar more than a traditional empty hand form of MA but to say what you stated has no basis that you could quote.

You replied:

Correction: If you are into something that´s gonna be tested in real situations you should spar more.

I don't agree that anyone except a competitor should do 40% of there training as sparring. If you are competing, fine, spar as often as you need. If you are not into sport I would argue that sparring has little benefit and in many cases is counter productive.
I have taken sports sparring out of my training because, IMHO, it has no value.

If we were sparring to MMA rules there are many things we can not do:



The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:

• Butting with the head
• Eye gouging of any kind
• Biting
• Hair pulling
• Fish hooking
• Groin attacks of any kind
• Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
• Small joint manipulation
• Striking to the spine or the back of the head
• Striking downward using the point of the elbow
• Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
• Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
• Grabbing the clavicle
• Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
• Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
• Stomping a grounded opponent
• Kicking to the kidney with the heel
• Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
• Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
• Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent
• Spitting at an opponent
• Engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent
• Holding the ropes or the fence
• Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area
• Attacking an opponent on or during the break
• Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
• Attacking an opponent after the bell (horn) has sounded the end of a round
• Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee
• Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury
• Interference by the corner
• Throwing in the towel during competition

I train my guys to bite, gauge, break fingers, crush testicles, head butt, tear the sides of cheeks, tear ears, crush the larynx, strike to the neck, take out the knees, utilise the point of the elbow etc etc etc. These are things you may need to do in a street fight and most of these techniques are found in the traditional martial arts. We engage in close combat fighting but it is not full force for obvious reasons. Why do we need to spar for at least 40% of the time and not practise any of the techniques that may in fact save our lives. Your statement is patent nonsense.

I've taken the liberty of correcting your last point. I hope you don't mind.

If you are into something that´s gonna be tested in real situations you should spar less, not more. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I posted:

All civilian forms of self defence were designed to be used against untrained thugs. I asked you about that earlier but you declined to answer. If I want to fight another good martial artist I will train for that. That means train for sport. I did show you the type of training I favour ... that was the Bas Ruten video. You don't spar that type of self defence. I asked you about certain techniques in the video. You ignored the question. I asked you what you thought was an effective MA and you ignored the question

Untrained thugs? Good luck when you find someone who knows how to beat you. Martial Arts are becoming more and more popular. So many people nowadays have trained something. That´s not the best mentality to have. And not even against a thug you would be able to apply whatever you´ve been training in Aikido. Prove me otherwise.

I'm really not sure how I can be more specific. You continue to ramble like Muammar Gaddafi! He can talk for hours and say nothing! Please feel free to take that as a compliment.

What part of "All civilian forms of self defence were designed to be used against untrained thugs." are you struggling with?

Do you agree or disagree? "If I want to fight another good martial artist I will train for that. That means train for sport."

"I did show you the type of training I favour ... that was the Bas Ruten video. You don't spar that type of self defence. I asked you about certain techniques in the video. You ignored the question. I asked you what you thought was an effective MA and you ignored the question."

I asked you about the arm bars etc in this clip. Did you really look at them? Just in case you didn't recognise them, they're the same ones we train in aikido.

And, please, from your vast knowledge of the martial arts, could you please tell me which style YOU think might be effective. :asian:

 

[fangjian]

I actively teach things like head-butting, eye-gouging, throat striking, downward elbow, and striking a down opponent.

These concepts, I actually have techniques that we actually train all the time in drills and stuff. Hopefully soon I can get some things so that we can actually strike instead of pulling our strikes. Maybe a helmet so we can head butt, goggles so we can eye wipe, etc.

I've been to a few places that arrogantly claim MMA isn't real fighting and then pull out a list of concepts that they could hypothetically use. I have been watching a lot of Kun Tao and JKD videos in seeing how they respond with these concepts too. They are very good at it. They train it the best I have seen.
Do you actively train these things?

Admittedly of course, an MMA fight isn't exactly real fighting. Real fighting is definitely more scary. There's no warning up for the fight. Medics on standby etc.
A couple years ago, I was at a bar and some guy got in my face and started talkin *****. I actually got......scared. I train MMA FMA too. I immediately started to try to calm him down. Once he was calmed down, I walked to a nearby table and grabbed a couple beer bottles in case I needed to smash them on his face. My point is, all of my sparring and training didn't help and I still got scared. So then I realized the value of role playing. Having someone get in your face push you around and yell at you in your school. This is beneficial for training too.

In conclusion I guess I think that, for general preparedness for self defense, MMA type training is good. But I don't think it is necessarily the best. But I do think it is one of the better methods of training and am wondering, how many other methods out there who criticize it actually train those illegal moves.

To everyone besides RoninX- Do you guys train those illegal moves that you feel the average MMA'er doesn't train?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Pretty much, yes. There's a whole list of targets we learn to hit, based on grade, the most basic ones first. In our partner drills, we target those areas. Not only the standard ones (nose, chin, sternum) but also the other ones (throat, eyes, ears, testicles). The idea is to learn to always attack the most appropriate area, based on position etc.

We don't spar as such, but form time to time we do pressure testing, scenarios, etc. One person is uke, the other is tori. There is a wide range of ways we test. For example, a while back, we did an escape exercise where uke was allowed to perform a hold and pin tori down on the ground. The goal of the exercise was for tori to escape.

When the sempai and I were up, he got both of my arms into a lock, and then choked me with my gi. A pretty hopeless situation as long as there are rules. Especially because the choke gave me little time. So what I did was to try and bite his throat and go for his jugular. He caught on to that and arched his head back. This allowed me to grab 2 fists full of hair and yank his head backwards and roll him off me. At that point I freed one hand and grabbed his throat. At that point the exercise was finished.

Other things include having an uke and a tori, and allow (a limited set of) random attacks. Or create a scenario where tori is presed against a wall, etc. Things like that. We don't often do these things because we see them as a test. Not as a regular training tool.

 

[fangjian]

Pretty much, yes. There's a whole list of targets we learn to hit, based on grade, the most basic ones first. In our partner drills, we target those areas. Not only the standard ones (nose, chin, sternum) but also the other ones (throat, eyes, ears, testicles). The idea is to learn to always attack the most appropriate area, based on position etc.

We don't spar as such, but form time to time we do pressure testing, scenarios, etc. One person is uke, the other is tori. There is a wide range of ways we test. For example, a while back, we did an escape exercise where uke was allowed to perform a hold and pin tori down on the ground. The goal of the exercise was for tori to escape.

When the sempai and I were up, he got both of my arms into a lock, and then choked me with my gi. A pretty hopeless situation as long as there are rules. Especially because the choke gave me little time. So what I did was to try and bite his throat and go for his jugular. He caught on to that and arched his head back. This allowed me to grab 2 fists full of hair and yank his head backwards and roll him off me. At that point I freed one hand and grabbed his throat. At that point the exercise was finished.

Other things include having an uke and a tori, and allow (a limited set of) random attacks. Or create a scenario where tori is presed against a wall, etc. Things like that. We don't often do these things because we see them as a test. Not as a regular training tool.

Very cool. Thank you for sharing. I suspected as much from someone who trains Ninjutsu. Any Aikidoka here train these types of concepts?

 

[Tanaka]

I think all training is useful.
Kata, Sparring, etc.

We train to hit vital areas, but we also spar. This allows us to see what it is like against someone who doesn't give us what we want, and is trying to defeat/counter you.

 

[Yari]

.... Your style must be different.

Just my point..... Since Aikido is diverse compared to some styles, there are many differnet usages; you'll find using the term Aikido as a gerneral term not adequit.
It's that Aikido is so diverse that gives it so many usages.

/Terje

 

[Yari]

......If you are into something that´s gonna be tested in real situations you should spar less, not more. :asian:

I agree..

/terje

 

[K-man]

I actively teach things like head-butting, eye-gouging, throat striking, downward elbow, and striking a down opponent.

These concepts, I actually have techniques that we actually train all the time in drills and stuff. Hopefully soon I can get some things so that we can actually strike instead of pulling our strikes. Maybe a helmet so we can head butt, goggles so we can eye wipe, etc.

I've been to a few places that arrogantly claim MMA isn't real fighting and then pull out a list of concepts that they could hypothetically use. I have been watching a lot of Kun Tao and JKD videos in seeing how they respond with these concepts too. They are very good at it. They train it the best I have seen.
Do you actively train these things?

Admittedly of course, an MMA fight isn't exactly real fighting. Real fighting is definitely more scary. There's no warning up for the fight. Medics on standby etc.
A couple years ago, I was at a bar and some guy got in my face and started talkin *****. I actually got......scared. I train MMA FMA too. I immediately started to try to calm him down. Once he was calmed down, I walked to a nearby table and grabbed a couple beer bottles in case I needed to smash them on his face. My point is, all of my sparring and training didn't help and I still got scared. So then I realized the value of role playing. Having someone get in your face push you around and yell at you in your school. This is beneficial for training too.

In conclusion I guess I think that, for general preparedness for self defense, MMA type training is good. But I don't think it is necessarily the best. But I do think it is one of the better methods of training and am wondering, how many other methods out there who criticize it actually train those illegal moves.

To everyone besides RoninX- Do you guys train those illegal moves that you feel the average MMA'er doesn't train?

We have full face headguards that we use. Fingers can still accidently reach the eyes but because that is more of a clawing action it is not normally a problem. We start the scenario from a 'touching' situation rather than sparring range. We do practise from full on bear hug or choke situations but I prefer to have people react as the choke or grab is occurring. What I mean here is that I prefer the guys to take action at the first indication of trouble than to react after they have been grabbed. So here we are using elbows to strike to the ribs. These could be prohibited in MMA. Grabs from the front bring in an automatic grab to the groin. (Most people I know go for hits to the groin but IMO these often don't connect and are often ineffective. A grab is a grab is a grab!)

If I was much younger and just starting I would possibly have gone down the MMA track because it gives a great range of training in one place, from grappling to punching and kicking. But the price is high. I have many friends with permanent injuries and damaged joints that will only impact more on them as they age. Even with aikido where we are careful, I am nursing elbow and shoulder injury. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Very cool. Thank you for sharing. I suspected as much from someone who trains Ninjutsu. Any Aikidoka here train these types of concepts?

I probably should have said, my previous post was what I train with the karate. In aikido the only "illegal to MMA" moves we train would be:

Small joint manipulation
Striking to the spine or the back of the head
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Throat strikes of any kind.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent

After all, Aikido is for ladies and gentlemen ... not the common folk! :asian:

 

[RoninX]

My mindset as a karateka or an aikidoka is;
Number 1 = Evade (Tsabaki)
Number 2 = Strike (Atemi)
Number 3 = Control or destroy.

That works for me! What is it about that simple sequence that fails to compute? Now something as simple as this common to karate or most other styles of MA. Now I ask you a question. If as a karateka I hit you hard in the throat, let's say as a knife hand (banned in MMA by the way), is it likely to be effective? In karate we'll call it shuto uchi.

We are talking about Aikido. If you are also a Karateka, you don´t exactly fall into that category. Of course, if i train 10 martial arts, there are tons of things that i can do. But would i do those things if i only trained Aikido? I´m all for cross training, but here we´re talking about Aikido.

I'll spell it out for you. The question was "Aikido seems to have some useful and seemingly effective techniques for grappling and takedowns. Why don't you see these utilised in MMA?"

If a wrist throw was really an effective technique, you would see it being used more often in MMA fights. A technique is a technique. You don´t twist somebody´s wrist in a cage, but you expect that to work in the street, against a thug. That´s your mentality. Nice.

I don't agree that anyone except a competitor should do 40% of there training as sparring. If you are competing, fine, spar as often as you need. If you are not into sport I would argue that sparring has little benefit and in many cases is counter productive.
I have taken sports sparring out of my training because, IMHO, it has no value.

If you are training expecting to control a resistant opponent under a real street scenario you should also train under a resistant opponent in your dojo. It´s basic logic. There´s a world of differences between applying something to someone who resist you and applying something to someone who doesn´t resist you. Isn´t even close.

If we were sparring to MMA rules there are many things we can not do:

And if you are not sparring at all you will still not doing all those things. Sparing helps to develop your instincts and teaches you how to adapt a technique under different circunstances. It teaches you the feeling of being resisted, and makes you try to adapt in order to overcome that.

Yes, you can grab your opponent´s balls. So what? The benefits of sparring are still there, and it´s better do it than not do it at all.

A Judoka spars without hitting the opponent, but their throws are still effective in situations where strikes are allowed.

I train my guys to bite, gauge, break fingers, crush testicles, head butt, tear the sides of cheeks, tear ears, crush the larynx, strike to the neck

Define "i train". Do you actually make them do that, or you only tell them to do that? The difference is huge, you know?

What part of "All civilian forms of self defence were designed to be used against untrained thugs." are you struggling with?

No Martial Art who defines itself as "effective" should presume all people they could face are untrained thugs. There are many trained people walking around doing ****. Martial Arts are very popular. "Ok, this is a good martial art, but it will only work against untrained guys. Against trained thugs you will get your *** kicked. Who wants to sign?" Yes, very appealing.

Do you agree or disagree? "If I want to fight another good martial artist I will train for that. That means train for sport."

I generally train to be able to fight any person, martial artist or not. That´s effectiveness. A good martial art will give you a chance of defending yourself against any person. A real martial art would do good against a thug and against a real martial artist.

"I did show you the type of training I favour ... that was the Bas Ruten video. You don't spar that type of self defence. I asked you about certain techniques in the video. You ignored the question. I asked you what you thought was an effective MA and you ignored the question."

If you don´t spar that kind of self defense, you will never gonna be able to use it successfully. That´s for sure. Send a mail to Bas Rutten and ask him if you should spar for self defense. You will see the answer :ultracool