Real aikido street fight

[Telfer]

I've watched this clip several times and its really no different from what you would see in a Steven Seagal movie...which is choreographed.

It also appears that the video has been speeded up in spots.

Aikido with FULL resistance looks more like this:

And even here they are sparring with rules against striking, so its not even remotely realistic.

I'm not saying it cant work...only that its not pretty.

 

[Jenna]

I've watched this clip several times and its really no different from what you would see in a Steven Seagal movie...which is choreographed.

It also appears that the video has been speeded up in spots.

Aikido with FULL resistance looks more like this:

And even here they are sparring with rules against striking, so its not even remotely realistic.

I'm not saying it cant work...only that its not pretty.

I do not know what point you are making here? You are not saying that it cannot work? Can I thus infer that you are saying it CAN work? Because otherwise I am worried that I have been practicing something utterly irrelevant and useless for quite a long time now and would be keen to rectify that situation quickly so that I can go take up a proper martial art.

I have not watched the video and so I apologise for posting something wholly pointless

Jenna

 

[Telfer]

You are not saying that it cannot work? Can I thus infer that you are saying it CAN work?

Yes, its not so much as WHAT but HOW. Whether something works or not is influenced by many variable circumstances and conditions.

If I want to find out if the WHAT and HOW works in a realistic scenario with relative safety the only way to do it is with full contact competition.

It wont look like dancing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do not know what point you are making here? You are not saying that it cannot work? Can I thus infer that you are saying it CAN work? Because otherwise I am worried that I have been practicing something utterly irrelevant and useless for quite a long time now and would be keen to rectify that situation quickly so that I can go take up a proper martial art.

Don't stop training; embrace its supposed uselessness..... believe me it can and WILL work to your advantage :EG: and BOY the shocked look on the face of the other guy is well worth it

And I know this from experience, I was the guy that, after sparring several Aikido people and defeating them, felt Aikido was useless...that was until a woman that was considerably smaller than me slammed on the floor a couple of times (it was very cool, and I am sure the look of complete surprise on my face was priceless). I then discovered that Aikido.... like all MA styles... if done right... works rather well.

 

[theletch1]

No, you're right, aikido in a "real" street fight isn't going to look like a dance... well, maybe the slam dancing of the '80s... but not anything like a Ginger Rogers/Fred Astair movie. The fluidity seen in training and in clips that haven't been completely choreographed but are between aikido-ka is there because both parties have an idea of what is supposed to happen in that scenario and are (to at least some extent) going with the flow to keep things that shouldn't twist or bend in a certain way from twisting or bending in that particular way. I'd be very disappointed to see ANY responsible martial artist of ANY style intentionally destroy someones use of a limb or joint for the sake of gratifying the morbid curiousity of those that have never taken the time to attempt to study an art. As for me I'll keep on studying this art (not my first) because I've used it... physically and psychologically... to defend myself with great success. If your ego is larger than your brain you probably won't find much in aikido to like. Aikido requires that you truly understand the idea of giving in to get your way and that doesn't really stroke the ego. Of course, once you truly understand that concept you don't need you ego stroked to feel good about yourself.

 

[Yari]

No, you're right, aikido in a "real" street fight isn't going to look like a dance... ..... Of course, once you truly understand that concept you don't need you ego stroked to feel good about yourself.

THE whole part is good, very good indeed! loved reading.... I bow to your wisdom.

/yari

 

[RoninX]

And why do you think that AiKiDo doesn't work? I used AiKiDo only in a street fight in 1985 when in Korea and attacked by a fellow soldier, and I used it in the only other real fight I had, to great success. The second was with another MA person and still did pretty good....

Why do you think it doesn't work?

I´m pretty sure almost anything would work once in a while. But to me, that´s not the true definition of effectiveness. To me, effectiveness is being able to excute a technique with a high success rate.

Put a Street fighter against a good Boxer, and the Boxer would be able to execute his boxing techniques 90% of the time.

Put a Street fighter against a Kickboxer, and the Kickboxer would be able to execute his Kickboxing techniques 90% of the time.

Put a Street fighter against a BJJ guy, and the BJJ guy would be able to take him down and submitt him 90% of the time.

That´s effectiveness.

Now put a Street fighter against an Aikidoka, and i would love to see how many of his flashy throws an Aikidoka is able to score.

You can love your art all you want, but don´t be delusional, my son. Aikido isn´t a practical art. And if you honestly believe otherwise, there´s something very wrong with you.

I´m sorry if i´m being a little aggressive, but i think this nonsense has to stop. The techniques in the video won´t work 90% of the time. That´s not self defense. That´s fancy moves, and they´re good for the movies, not to save someone´s life.

 

[K-man]

I´m pretty sure almost anything would work once in a while. But to me, that´s not the true definition of effectiveness. To me, effectiveness is being able to excute a technique with a high success rate. Agree

Put a Street fighter against a good Boxer, and the Boxer would be able to execute his boxing techniques 90% of the time. Disagree

Put a Street fighter against a Kickboxer, and the Kickboxer would be able to execute his Kickboxing techniques 90% of the time. Disagree

Put a Street fighter against a BJJ guy, and the BJJ guy would be able to take him down and submitt him 90% of the time. Disagree

That´s effectiveness.

Now put a Street fighter against an Aikidoka, and i would love to see how many of his flashy throws an Aikidoka is able to score. Depends on your training and level of proficiency. Aikido throws are not flashy, just some of the falls. If the uke does not fall in a safe manner he will be injured. And, in aikido there is no sport, therefore no 'score'.

You can love your art all you want, but don´t be delusional, my son. Aikido isn´t a practical art. And if you honestly believe otherwise, there´s something very wrong with you. Can you please make an appointment for me as I must need urgent help! :erg:

I´m sorry if i´m being a little aggressive, but i think this nonsense has to stop. The techniques in the video won´t work 90% of the time. That´s not self defense. That´s fancy moves, and they´re good for the movies, not to save someone´s life.

I think the first thing that we need to address is that if you train for sport you are a sportsman. Boxing is a sport, BJJ is a sport, Kickboxing is a sport, Muay Thai is a sport. I would back a competent street fighter against any of them. Aikido as it is practised in most places is an art. It takes a long time to become proficient. I regularly train with some of this country's top martial artists but not one of them can lay a finger on my Aikido teacher. I'm now in my 5th year of aikido training, yet it is not my primary interest. My passion is Okinawan Goju karate and that also is not a sport, nor do we train it as a sport. I went through the competition stuff years ago and it finally got through my thick skull that competition does not equate to self defence.

Aikido is a great way to understand the basics of karate if you are prepared to take the time. The beauty of aikido is that you utilise whatever comes to hand. Locks and holds are not locks and holds, they are joint destruction. Certain moves cause predictive response that we use in both karate and aikido. Most martial arts rely on speed and power. Aikido does not. If you blend aikido in with modern karate you almost get back to traditional karate.

I'm assuming from your post that you feel some martial arts are effective and aikido is not. Traditional MAs were NOT designed to use against other trained martial artists (weapon arts excepted). They were designed to be used against street thugs. Unfortunately many martial arts are now trained in such a way to virtually render them useless against an experienced street fighter.

The techniques in the video will work most of the time and they will work even more often if your aikido training includes atemi.

Here's a clip that I consider puts karate and aikido together in an effective way. Not your classical aikido I will admit, but you will see the locks, holds and armbars, complete with atemi, trained in aikido.

Perhaps you could post an example of what you think would be effective on the street for us to share. :asian:

 

[Yari]

......flashy throws an Aikidoka is able to score.

...... And if you honestly believe otherwise, there´s something very wrong with you.

....... The techniques in the video won´t work 90% of the time. That´s not self defense. That´s fancy moves, and they´re good for the movies, not to save someone´s life.

Maybe we should define what Aikido is....

Aikido is many different styles, just like saying "car". A car isn't just a car, some cars are made for road driving, others made for off-roading, while others are just for show case. Some have a bit of all in in. Some of them you wash the car, making it look nice, drive in photogenic scenori, just for the show.

Some styles of aikido will be "more for the show", some will be more the spiruality, some just for fun and so on.

When that is said, I belive that what you show on a video will never be the same as what you'll see in real life, since real life is much more dynamic. But this counts for evey style. What you learn (drills) will not look what you'll be doing in real life.

For me Aikido is learning principles: Pre-emtive striks, liveness with opponent, redirects, punches, kicks, locks, breaks and changes of techiques, based on your opponents movements.

These things I don't see in a lot of arts, and I see Aikido styles that dont do this too, but that doesn't mean that Aikido doesn't work

/Terje

 

[tempus]

Yes. I do the fancy throws. I flip in the air, roll out of throw, etc... One thing some people are forgetting is if I did not do those things, my shoulder would be in pieces, my wrist broken, my elbow shattered and my face crushed against the ground.

In my style, if I am up against someone who is trained and the situation escalates where I have to defend my self, we are taught to kick in the groin, shatter the attackers knee and then use that energy into the techniques.

-Gary

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think the first thing that we need to address is that if you train for sport you are a sportsman. Boxing is a sport, BJJ is a sport, Kickboxing is a sport, Muay Thai is a sport. I would back a competent street fighter against any of them.

I agree. One of the things our Sensei tells us that there are some really good street fighters out there, and they are forces to be reckoned with. People who have been in hundreds of no-holds-barred fights in their lives tend to accumulate winning strategies and use their natural advantages to the point where they become quite effective against others.

I prefer the style I being trained in currently, but I don't discount the real-world effectiveness of other styles, or of truly B.A. individuals with no particular style at all other than whupping butt.

 

[RoninX]

I think the first thing that we need to address is that if you train for sport you are a sportsman. Boxing is a sport, BJJ is a sport, Kickboxing is a sport, Muay Thai is a sport. I would back a competent street fighter against any of them.

Yeah. And the fact of being sports doesn´t. invalidate their effectiveness. How how exactly would a "competent" regular person defeat a kickboxer? With a weapon? Maybe. Anybody can beat anybody with a weapon.

Aikido as it is practised in most places is an art. It takes a long time to become proficient. I regularly train with some of this country's top martial artists but not one of them can lay a finger on my Aikido teacher. I'm now in my 5th year of aikido training

I´m not discussioning the definition of Aikido, and i don´t really care what Aikido is.

Aikido is a great way to understand the basics of karate if you are prepared to take the time. The beauty of aikido is that you utilise whatever comes to hand. Locks and holds are not locks and holds, they are joint destruction. Certain moves cause predictive response that we use in both karate and aikido. Most martial arts rely on speed and power. Aikido does not. If you blend aikido in with modern karate you almost get back to traditional karate.

That´s all true inside a Dôjô. Outside of the dojo you will fail your joint destruction 85/90% of the time.

I'm assuming from your post that you feel some martial arts are effective and aikido is not. Traditional MAs were NOT designed to use against other trained martial artists (weapon arts excepted). They were designed to be used against street thugs. Unfortunately many martial arts are now trained in such a way to virtually render them useless against an experienced street fighter.

I don´t feel, i know.

Let me correct you:

Traditional MAs were NOT designed to use against other resisting opponent.

The techniques in the video will work most of the time and they will work even more often if your aikido training includes atemi.

I´ve never seen any evidence of this, and only people with zero experience in combat, or people who really what to belive this crap to feel better with themselvs would say something like that. The techniques don´t work, and dare anyone to prove otherwise.

Do you want videos of boxing, karate etc being you used in a street fight? You can have it. Show me aikido being used in a street fight. But show me the most common techniques, like the join locks. I wanna see it.

 

[RoninX]

I almost forgot how delusional and obsessed this people are. Trying to argue with lunatics is a waste of time. Aikido doesn´t work, and any rational person could come to that conclusion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I almost forgot how delusional and obsessed this people are. Trying to argue with lunatics is a waste of time. Aikido doesn´t work, and any rational person could come to that conclusion.

You sound very familiar.... have you been here before under a similar name that started with Ronin? Pressure testing sound familiar to you does it?

And for the record any rational person would not be intentionally starting arguments on a webpage

 

[RoninX]

You sound very familiar.... have you been here before under a similar name that started with Ronin? Pressure testing sound familiar to you does it?

And for the record any rational person would not be intentionally starting arguments on a webpage

No! Roninx is my only and first nick.

 

[K-man]

Yeah. And the fact of being sports doesn´t. invalidate their effectiveness. How how exactly would a "competent" regular person defeat a kickboxer? With a weapon? Maybe. Anybody can beat anybody with a weapon.

Where did I mention a weapon? A good street fighter will easilly beatup most people who train in the martial arts. The reason is that even in the ring you don't get the adrenal dump you get when someone is genuinely trying to kill you. The street guys are in that situation regularly and it is very hard to create the reality of that situation in the dojo. That's what makes a street fight so dangerous.

You are what you train. You forget to eye gouge, you forget to take out the trachea, you don't crush his nuts and you never take out the knees. These are four of the first things we target.

And then, when you train for competition it gets ten times worse. in many competitions or tournaments you even learn to pull your punches or you aren't allowed to strike to the head. Great training for a street fight!


I´m not discussioning the definition of Aikido, and i don´t really care what Aikido is.

Then why comment if you don't care about aikido. Good aikido is good. BS aikido is the same as any other BS MA. You are generalising about a MA that it sounds like you have never trained or if you did it was in a BS dojo.

That´s all true inside a Dôjô. Outside of the dojo you will fail your joint destruction 85/90% of the time.

Crap! It takes very little more pressure than we use in the dojo to injure and very little more to destroy. The injury part, most people training aikido against full resistance will testify happens too frequently.

I'm assuming from your post that you feel some martial arts are effective and aikido is not.

I don´t feel, i know.

That's bordering on arrogance ... and is incorrect!

Let me correct you:

Traditional MAs were NOT designed to use against other resisting opponent.

Huh??

You obviously have never seen traditional MAs. WTF do you think people were training it for? To keep fit? It was pretty rough in asia before 1900. They had a hard enough time just living to waste time training an ineffectual method of self defence. Traditional MAs were taught to defend people in a lawless society.

What do you think the bad guys did after they made the first move? Roll over! Give me a break. ALL traditional MAs were developed to use against people trying to bash or kill them! If you can't acknowledge that then you are in living in Fairyland.

The techniques in the video will work most of the time and they will work even more often if your aikido training includes atemi.

I´ve never seen any evidence of this, and only people with zero experience in combat, or people who really what to belive this crap to feel better with themselvs would say something like that. The techniques don´t work, and dare anyone to prove otherwise.

I suppose I need to tell you what atemi is. Atemi is the same strike that you boxer or kickboxer or MMA fighter would use. It is the same knee to the head or groin that your Muay Thai fighter uses. The locks and holds are the same locks and holds that your BJJ grappler would use. Have you never seen those guys use an effective technique? Are you seriously trying to tell me those techniques don't work?

Do you want videos of boxing, karate etc being you used in a street fight? You can have it. Show me aikido being used in a street fight. But show me the most common techniques, like the join locks. I wanna see it.

You obviously didn't watch Bas' video very closely. There are locks and holds there straight from Aikido or Jujutsu or whatever style of grappling you like to mention. They all come from the same base. I also said that it is mixed with karate, that is 'traditional' MA, all up close and personal. Not pretty but effective.

Now, I have no idea of your MA background or training. I'm assuming from your profile it is Ninjutsu. I have no axe to grind there. It is a traditional MA and as effective as any other traditional MA. Please post a video of YOUR type of training against a street fighter.

I showed you mine now you show me yours. :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

OK, guys, let's all take a deep breath here. No need for personal insults.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I almost forgot how delusional and obsessed this people are. Trying to argue with lunatics is a waste of time. Aikido doesn´t work, and any rational person could come to that conclusion.

That is a novel thing to say for someone who lists Bujinkan as his main art.
There are many people just like you, claiming just the same thing about what you do.
But that is totally different of course

 

[MA-Caver]

Age old arguments about whether this art is more effective than that art is just plain moot. ESPECIALLY when one considers that the art itself is only as effective as the practitioner who implements it. Just like a gun is only as accurate as the shooter or anything else for that matter.
Having been in street combats before and while my own art is JKDI I can only say what I see in the videos based on my experience.
True that a combatant isn't going to roll with the punches or the flips or other techs that an aikidoist is going to use on them. THAT is what makes the art effective IMO. If the ukes did NOT roll with them or resisted as a real street thug would do then their arms would be broken, wrists twisted out of shape and so forth.
When I was a uke for a Kenpoist (EPAK) who is on this forum I would invariably get her mad at me because I at times wasn't "rolling with the punches" as she expected. For every tech she performed/practised on me I could think of a counter. Yet I relented and did as a good uke should, roll with it and not resist so she could get the techs down as she needed to so to pass her test, which she had with flying colors (pardon the pun).
Yet the question still rose in my mind based on my experiences, would she be able to effectively carry those out in a parking lot en-route to her car and was jumped by some thug wanting her wallet or worse.
Same application goes with any other art. It's only as good as you are and your level of skill.

Are the arts still worth studying? Absolutely. Which art? That's up to you. But saying this wouldn't work or that wouldn't work is groundless unless you yourself have actually tried it in real-life situations.

So please, as Bill stated lets keep the conversations respectful, civil and mindful that your art is only as good as YOU are, likewise nearly every single art has their techniques based on true life applications by the GM's who created them years before (many) of us were born.

 

[blindsage]

Let me correct you:

Traditional MAs were NOT designed to use against other resisting opponent.

Really? That's how you feel?

Do you want videos of boxing, karate etc being you used in a street fight? You can have it.

Oh....I guess not.