Real aikido street fight

[RoninX]

That is a novel thing to say for someone who lists Bujinkan as his main art.
There are many people just like you, claiming just the same thing about what you do.
But that is totally different of course

I list Bujinkan as my main art, i don´t walk around saying it´s effective. There´s a difference, don´t you think? Yeah, because i´m able to find value in a martial art, despite it´s effectiveness. So, you don´t have a point. Plus, i haven´t update my info since 2008. That´s a long time, and nothing guarantees you i´m still on Bujinkan. The fact is that today i cross train in several arts.

True that a combatant isn't going to roll with the punches or the flips or other techs that an aikidoist is going to use on them. THAT is what makes the art effective IMO. If the ukes did NOT roll with them or resisted as a real street thug would do then their arms would be broken, wrists twisted out of shape and so forth.

The question here isn´t about the Ukemi. I totally understand the Ukemi concept, and i agree with it. I´ve trained several "TMA", and Aikido was one of them.

The question is about the effectiveness of Aikido´s main techniques, wich i and many, many people doubt, based not only on logical thinking, but also on personal experience. I´ve spent more than 15 years looking to see anyone apply with an high success rate Aikido techniques on a resisting person, and i´m yet to see it. Unfortunately the only thing i keep seeing is people saying i don´t understand the art, and that they´ve used Aikido in the streets, bla, bla, bla, but none of them has been able to prove nothing they say. It´s all just talk. I´ve seen tons of aikido people getting beaten up, but zero Aikido people beating up somebody. Everytime i see an Aikido guy against a resisting opponent he is looking bad.

The chances of an Aikido guy apply a technique on someone with no experience are very small, and the chances of the same technique being applied on someone from an effective martial art is almost zero.

I´ve seen a friend of mine, 2nd dan in Aikido, trying to apply some of the joint locks to other friends of mine, with zero experience, and not being able to succeed one single time. Most of the time he couldn´t even catch their wrists, and when he did, they only needed to resist a little bit, and that´s it, nobody is going to the ground. Yeah, yeah "he probably is a bad aikidoka, bla, bla, bla, bla". Well, cut the crap. I´ve seen tons of Aikidoka not succeeding when trying to apply aikido techniques on a resisting opponent, because the fact is: If you resist, you are not going down. At least, not 97% of the time.

But, hey, i understand you! I was also a guy who believed Koryu techniques were very effective, and no matter what others tried to say to me, i would just not believe them. I had to learn by myself.

Really? That's how you feel?

That´s how any non delusional person feels. Anyone with a basic understanding of how an alive situation works knows none of the "catch the arm and twist the wrist" works. That´s good for movies, but in reality, i´m still waiting to someone who proves i´m wong.

I had 15 years old when i first took an Aikido class, and none of the students could take me to the ground. Yeah, i know, that´s a bad behavior, but at the time i liked to resist. They called their Sensei, a 4th dan Aikido master, and he couldn´t take me to the ground, and the only thing i did was to gently resist, using pure force, and nothing more than that. Zero technique; just counter force.

Aikido, Jujutsu, Ninpô: The only time in these arts anyone was able to take me down with a wrist lock was when agreed to go to the ground. Everytime i wanted to, i would easy break the lock. I don´t care what´s your rank; you will only take me to the ground with a joint lock if i agree to go to the ground. Joint locks are easy to break, and the only way they can work is with compliant opponents. Plus, most of the time you won´t even fail taking me down, because you won´t even be able to catch my arm or wrist, because that´s almost as impossible as aplying joint locks. If i want to punch you in the head, the only thing you can do is to run or to apply a non convencional Aikido technique, because more than 95% of what you train won´t work against someone trying to punch you. You have almost zero chances of catch an arm in full speed movement. This ain´t Steven Seagal´s movies.

 

[jks9199]

Just so you know -- it is possible to discuss things without being insulting or rude. In fact, in these parts, it's kind of expected. You may wish to consider this a word to the wise, before we see more direct moderator action taken.

 

[MA-Caver]

RoninX, this is not to start a fight or anything else just a question of your post and call it... polite counter point.

You speak as if (if I am reading your post correctly) that the average street thug is an invincible, lightning fast, impossible to beat opponent. I wonder where you get that idea.
I've fought these guys (or guys like them), homeless or drug-addicted, criminal types when I myself used to live on the streets, homeless.
No, I didn't use any fancy techs against them, just what I was taught/practiced and improvised on the spot. Knife, 2X4, sticks, broken bottles whatever... a few of them were slow and clumsy to say the least, with others I was just plain damned lucky...with the scars to prove it.
I got to watch more fights than I was ever in which was to say a few (less than 10)... they're messy, slow, clumsy and overall plain stupid. Some even laughingly tried some of the movie stuff they watched at some point in their lives and got their asses handed to them by some other guy who more-n-likely also watched a movie OR had some actual combat (military) training. After the fight was over, a lot when to the hospital and a couple I saw went to the morgue.
What I'm saying here is not to give too much credit to the average thug. They're dangerous and they're vicious to be sure and should NEVER be underestimated. They should be dealt with as quickly as possible by any means necessary.
Yet if your training (whatever it may be) allows you to perform a tech against them then don't hesitate and chances are... you're going to be able to do it.
Is this fantasy world? :idunno: If it is why bother studying ANY MA? Especially if it's not going to work out there in the real world?
Again, it's only as good as you make it to be.
It's too bad with all the cameras and camera phones on the planet that nobody has yet caught a MA-ist doing their technique against an actual street fight. Or better clarify it's too bad that not ALL the arts have been "caught on tape" so we can see if they're ******** or not.
Perhaps someday we'll get lucky and see it on You-Tube.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No! Roninx is my only and first nick.

Sorry, you sounded like someone else that was once on MT.

And I still don't understand anyone's need to bash other styles (although I do have a theory on it) and force their opinions on others... and it is just an opinion... but at least it is an entertaining read so type away, let the keys heat up and the vitriol flow

 

[RoninX]

Sorry, you sounded like someone else that was once on MT.

And I still don't understand anyone's need to bash other styles (although I do have a theory on it) and force their opinions on others... and it is just an opinion... but at least it is an entertaining read so type away, let the keys heat up and the vitriol flow

I didn´t know disagreeing wasn´t allowed around here. If i see someone saying something i consider a nonsense, i will disagree. You can call it whatever you want, but i don´t think it´s bashing. It´s just giving an opinion.

You speak as if (if I am reading your post correctly) that the average street thug is an invincible, lightning fast, impossible to beat opponent. I wonder where you get that idea.

I think you didn´t understand me. I don´t think that. The thing is, i don´t think you need to be invincible or lightning fast to avoid an Aikido technique, because Aikido is THAT ineffective. I throw you a punch and you will not be able to catch my wrist or arm. I´m 100% sure. And i´m not lightning fast.

It's too bad with all the cameras and camera phones on the planet that nobody has yet caught a MA-ist doing their technique against an actual street fight. Or better clarify it's too bad that not ALL the arts have been "caught on tape" so we can see if they're ******** or not.

Actually, i´ve seen several videos of several MA being used, but never anything that has anything to do with Aikido. Every single footage i´ve seen on Aikido going against any resisting opponent who isn´t is class mate shows me the Aikidoka taking an *** whoop. But i don´t even need to see videos or real fights to come to the conclusion that something doesn´t work. The same way you don´t need to see someone throwing himself out of the window to come to the conclusion he won´ be able to fly. You just need to use logical thinking.

 

[RoninX]

Just look at this video that is supposed to be a "sparring" session:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinO0vGum38&feature=related

1- The attacker is just horrible, and i doubt he has ever done any Taekwondo. But, although he is very bad, he is able to hit the Aikidoka several times, and only doesn´t hit him more times because he doesn´t want to. He has tons of chances of doing it. If he was going full speed, the Aikidoka would be gone.

2- The attacker isn´t fully resisting. Yet, the Aikidoka has an hard time doing anything to him. He barely can catch an arm, although he is "sparring" against someone showing very little resistance when grabbed. A fully resisting opponent would not be taken down one single time.

Why should i believe Aikido is effective? I see no reason to do that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I didn´t know disagreeing wasn´t allowed around here. If i see someone saying something i consider a nonsense, i will disagree. You can call it whatever you want, but i don´t think it´s bashing. It´s just giving an opinion.


I think you didn´t understand me. I don´t think that. The thing is, i don´t think you need to be invincible or lightning fast to avoid an Aikido technique, because Aikido is THAT ineffective. I throw you a punch and you will not be able to catch my wrist or arm. I´m 100% sure. And i´m not lightning fast.




Actually, i´ve seen several videos of several MA being used, but never anything that has anything to do with Aikido. Every single footage i´ve seen on Aikido going against any resisting opponent who isn´t is class mate shows me the Aikidoka taking an *** whoop. But i don´t even need to see videos or real fights to come to the conclusion that something doesn´t work. The same way you don´t need to see someone throwing himself out of the window to come to the conclusion he won´ be able to fly. You just need to use logical thinking.

you really need to make it clear who you are responding to in your posts becasue the above makes it look like I said all that and I didn't. All I said was

Typed by Xue Sheng

Sorry, you sounded like someone else that was once on MT.

And I still don't understand anyone's need to bash other styles (although I do have a theory on it) and force their opinions on others... and it is just an opinion... but at least it is an entertaining read so type away, let the keys heat up and the vitriol flow

And after you responded to that you went on and responded to these

Not typed by Xue Sheng

You speak as if (if I am reading your post correctly) that the average street thug is an invincible, lightning fast, impossible to beat opponent. I wonder where you get that idea.

Not typed by Xue Sheng

It's too bad with all the cameras and camera phones on the planet that nobody has yet caught a MA-ist doing their technique against an actual street fight. Or better clarify it's too bad that not ALL the arts have been "caught on tape" so we can see if they're ******** or not.

Which I did not say, however you did make it look like I did since the only name associated with all three quotes was Xue Sheng. But then maybe that was your plan, I don’t know, more bashing and vitriol possibly to make yourself look better :idunno:

Now as for what I said; disagreement is fine but you are not just disagreeing, you seem to be on a bit of a crusade here for a reason I think I now know but then it is only speculation on my part. as for the other 2 quote you responded to and attributed to me I don't know what to tell you, I did not type those so I cannot respond. So in future when responding to me please use what I said, stick with facts and don't add stuff that I did not say

Thank you

And I have to be truthful, after reading all your posts on this topic I am still wondering if you have not been here before under another, similar, name

 

[RoninX]

Sorry. My bad.

 

[dancingalone]

Not sure what the argument is about since K-man has already acknowledged atemi is important to making joint locking work. I do not know what the 'sparring' video was supposed to be an exercise in, but from my viewpoint, a specific lock is not something you chase. Instead, you take the opportunity that opens up after you have struck the attacker yourself to finish with a lock if desired - and you could just as easily do it with another strike again.

There is a thread titled something like 'Erroneous Aikido' which addresses many of the complaints RoninX has. Might be a good idea to read it instead of rehashing the topic in a bellicose fashion.

 

[RoninX]

According to the mod who just sent me a PM, i can´t say a style isn´t effective. I have to agree with the people who say it is, or otherwise i should shut my mouth. Opinions are only welcome if they´re favorable to style being discussed. It doesn´t matter if the style works or not; you should not say it doesn´t. The style could be the most pathetic thing on the face of the earth, but you gotta agree with anyone saying it works. You can´t have a contrary opinion, otherwise you will be "offending" people.

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

 

[Xue Sheng]

According to the mod who just sent me a PM, i can´t say a style isn´t effective. I have to agree with the people who say it is, or otherwise i should shut my mouth. Opinions are only welcome if they´re favorable to style being discussed. It doesn´t matter if the style works or not; you should not say it doesn´t. The style could be the most pathetic thing on the face of the earth, but you gotta agree with anyone saying it works. You can´t have a contrary opinion, otherwise you will be "offending" people.

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

:wavey:

 

[elder999]

So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

...and take yer little red wagon with you! :wavey:

 

[oaktree]

According to the mod who just sent me a PM, i can´t say a style isn´t effective. I have to agree with the people who say it is, or otherwise i should shut my mouth. Opinions are only welcome if they´re favorable to style being discussed. It doesn´t matter if the style works or not; you should not say it doesn´t. The style could be the most pathetic thing on the face of the earth, but you gotta agree with anyone saying it works. You can´t have a contrary opinion, otherwise you will be "offending" people.

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

Why can't you say its ineffective? You have the right to say your opinion as long as its in a respectful manner and as long as your arguement follows some logic no matter how uninformed it is.

You do not have to agree with anyone and noone has to agree with you.
If there is something you disagree with as far as the Mods are presenting themselves then you can speak with the owner of the site.

Reading your posts on this thread they do come off kinda of not polite so maybe if you reword your statements you can still discuss why you feel Aikido is not effective.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

According to the mod who just sent me a PM, i can´t say a style isn´t effective. I have to agree with the people who say it is, or otherwise i should shut my mouth. Opinions are only welcome if they´re favorable to style being discussed. It doesn´t matter if the style works or not; you should not say it doesn´t. The style could be the most pathetic thing on the face of the earth, but you gotta agree with anyone saying it works. You can´t have a contrary opinion, otherwise you will be "offending" people.

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

Misrepresent much?

This is the message you were sent.

Your post in the Aikido forum was reported to the moderation team. This post is rude, inappropriate, and in violation of our forum rules, specifically Section 1.10.2:

Quote:
1.10.2 No Art bashing.

No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.
It is strongly urged, that you refrain from this type of behavior. Further incidents can result in the issuance of infraction cards, which can lead to the suspension or banning of your account.

If you have any questions on this matter, please contact an administrator.

At no point were you told you could not say a style isn't effective. Feel free to discuss the pros and cons of the styles you are familiar with. Just do it politely and don't be an *** about it.

 

[MJS]

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

So, one would ask then....why are you involving yourself in this thread? Let me remind you of the rules that YOU agreed to upon joining. Specifically the part on trolling.

4.5 Trolling / Inciting Conflict:


No "Trolling." Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Do not create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles; signatures and / or posting comments that will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.

Those who attempt to start unnecessary conflicts in any of the forums, will be infracted. Repeat offenders may be suspended or banned.

 

[Bruno@MT]

According to the mod who just sent me a PM, i can´t say a style isn´t effective. I have to agree with the people who say it is, or otherwise i should shut my mouth. Opinions are only welcome if they´re favorable to style being discussed. It doesn´t matter if the style works or not; you should not say it doesn´t. The style could be the most pathetic thing on the face of the earth, but you gotta agree with anyone saying it works. You can´t have a contrary opinion, otherwise you will be "offending" people.

So, i´m done with this topic. I really have no need to discuss this, so i don´t really know why i´m doing it. I don´t train in Aikido, i don´t enjoy Aikido and i know it doesn´t work. So, i agree, there´s no reason for me to stay here.

Bye.

Nope. You don't have to agree with other people. If everybody agreed with everything, this wouldn't be a 'discussion' forum. However, calling people delusional, obsessed, etc is not a positive way to have a discussion. Neither is saying 'aikido is crap and none of it can work' because that is just not true. There are pros and cons to everything, and right and wrong ways to apply something.

There is one area in which I disagree with with one of our high profile members. What it is doesn't matter here. Based on our interpretation of the information we have, I think X while he thinks 'not X'. Fair enough. we discuss our viewpoints and try to come to a conclusion or agree to disagree in a respectful manner.

What we don't do is calling each other delusional and get rude and confrontational because the other guy does not agree.

 

[K-man]

Just look at this video that is supposed to be a "sparring" session:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinO0vGum38&feature=related

1- The attacker is just horrible, and i doubt he has ever done any Taekwondo. But, although he is very bad, he is able to hit the Aikidoka several times, and only doesn´t hit him more times because he doesn´t want to. He has tons of chances of doing it. If he was going full speed, the Aikidoka would be gone.

2- The attacker isn´t fully resisting. Yet, the Aikidoka has an hard time doing anything to him. He barely can catch an arm, although he is "sparring" against someone showing very little resistance when grabbed. A fully resisting opponent would not be taken down one single time.

Why should i believe Aikido is effective? I see no reason to do that.

I was not going to comment further, but, with a post like this .... I just couldn't help myself. I just hope the poster stays around long enough to to read it.

This video was posted as an example of how aikido is ineffective against TKD. The guys are wearing headgear so it would be possible to assume that a kick to the head was in the equation, although it was probably a bit of overkill on the part of the TKD guy (unless he was frightened he was going to land on his head which on reflection may have been likely). I've seen most things but an aikido guy doing high kicks to the head isn't one of them.

Now I don't know how effective this TKD guy is on a scale of 1-10 but I'll be the first to say, if I was in a tournament I'd slip the organisers a note to have him as my opponent.

Nevertheless, you can only spar what is in front of you and it was RoninX's choice of video to use as an example of the ineffectiveness of aikido.
Now as I saw it, the aikidoka could have broken the TKD guys neck the first time or at the least choked him out. The TKD guy did trap aikidoka's head under the arm for a moment but anyone with grappling skills knows how easy it is to avoid those punches and escape, which aikidoka did before applying the arm bar which would have destroyed the shoulder. Three more arm bars followed for a total of five submissions vs none. Also, trying to apply locks against gloves isn't easy either.

Now as it played out, all of the TKD guys kicks were easily parried and two or three times his kick was caught. In a street fight, TKD guy dead, multiple times if the fight was for real. At the end of the day, TKD guy puffing badly, aikidoka ready to go again.

Now read the commentary above and reflect on the comment vs the clip. Did I watch the right clip or was I dreaming?

"i doubt he has ever done any Taekwondo"

The guy I watched was wearing a black belt!

"If he was going full speed, the Aikidoka would be gone."

And if the Aikidoka was going full speed the TKD guy would be in traction for months.

"A fully resisting opponent would not be taken down one single time."

Mmm! If in real life and a real situation I caught a leg like that, the guy would be in serious trouble and he could resist as much as he liked. I wouldn't need the arm bar!

"Just look at this video that is supposed to be a "sparring" session:"

Yep a BB TKD guy kicking hard and fast, and wearing gloves so he could punch given the opportunity, vs a guy just standing there who TKD guy knew wasn't going to kick or punch. Some match up if the aikidoka is as bad as RoninX thinks!

"Why should i believe Aikido is effective? I see no reason to do that."

Believe what you like, it's a free country! :asian:

 

[Bruno@MT]

Also important to consider:

Performing e.g a wrist lock against a static person who is resisting is stupid. It won't work unless you muscle through. Such lock are meant to be used against a moving opponent, OR you break his concentration (and his localized resistance) with an atemi. OR you just do a different technique which he is not resisting.

I'll say it again: trying to muscle through a resisting opponent is stupid. and that is why a) we don't do it and b) we don't resist too hard when practicing the technique by itself, because then we'll never be able to practice it in a controlled manner.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Here is a most excellent article comparing the modern and classical approaches, explaining where, why and how they are different.
http://www.grapplearts.com/Submission-Grappling-vs-ju-jutsu.htm

 

[RoninX]

Now as it played out, all of the TKD guys kicks were easily parried and two or three times his kick was caught. In a street fight, TKD guy dead, multiple times if the fight was for real. At the end of the day, TKD guy puffing badly, aikidoka ready to go again.

In a street fight an average person would be punching 2 or 3 times times as fast, resulting in the Aikidoka not being able to grab him. The "Taekwondoka" is going pretty slow, and even that way the Aikidoka is unable to catch most of his punches and kicks.

The guy I watched was wearing a black belt!

Wich proves nothing. Judging by the sloppy kicks, i doubt he really is a black belt in TKD. To me this seems more like an Aikidoka with a small past experience in any striking art, simulating what supposly would happen if these two arts met.

And if the Aikidoka was going full speed the TKD guy would be in traction for months.

I don´t see why. The fight starts standing, and everytime they´re standing the Aikidoka gets hit several times, and fails multiple grab attempts. Plus, everytime the Taekwondoka´s gloves come close to the Aikidoka´s upper body, he stops punching, something he could easly do if he wanted to.

Mmm! If in real life and a real situation I caught a leg like that, the guy would be in serious trouble and he could resist as much as he liked. I wouldn't need the arm bar!

I don´t think you would be able to caught anything. In the video the Aikidoka barely is able to catch a sloppy slow leg. What makes you belive you would be able to catch a full speed leg, with a real intention of hitting you? Plus, in a street fight i doubt anyone would kick you. You should be more concerned about full speed non-compilant punches, wich are very, very difficult to grab.

Yep a BB TKD guy kicking hard and fast, and wearing gloves so he could punch given the opportunity, vs a guy just standing there who TKD guy knew wasn't going to kick or punch. Some match up if the aikidoka is as bad as RoninX thinks!

Hard and fast? I didn´t see nothing of that. Pheraps we are seeing different videos, because the only thing i saw were sloppy and soft median speed kicks.

Believe what you like, it's a free country!

I believe in what makes sense, and i would believe in Aikido as soon as i start seeing someone really applying it. Until now, i´m yet waiting.