reactions

[Appledog]

What's the difference?

A: Do you agree with my 6H definition?
B: My practice is different.
A: But you still have not explained what the difference is.

In this video, you can see his

- left hand coordinate with his left foot (left hand pull, left foot spin),
- right-hand coordinate with his right foot (right hand push back, right leg kick back).

Without 6H, this technique will be too complicated to train (4 separate forces). With 6H, the training difficulty has cut in half (2 separate forces).

What would happen if the guy who threw just punched the aggressor in the face? He was wide open.

Once my Sifu Patrick Kelly asked me to throw a punch. Before anyone could blink my fist was touching his chest. He said, he wasn't ready that time, do it again.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What would happen if the guy who threw just punched the aggressor in the face? He was wide open.

All demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity. The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it.

- If your opponent doesn't give you that opportunity, that's fighting.
- If you can't finish it and your opponent has to help you to finish it, that's fake demo.

If your opponent punches you, your "reaction" can be just a kick (not a throw because the throwing opportunity is not there).

 

[windwalker099]

Once my Sifu Patrick Kelly asked me to throw a punch. Before anyone could blink my fist was touching his chest. He said, he wasn't ready that time, do it again.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

In a demo ?

Found his work interesting, read some of his work many yrs ago

.

What's the difference?

In your practice the focus is on the body from what is shown.
In my practice the focus is on the mind, as shown...

You mention "coordination" of 6 harmonies
A different focus from "harmony" as in 6 harmonies

What is correct depends the focus of the training.
and expected outcome.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In your practice the focus is on the body from what is shown.
In my practice the focus is on the mind, as shown...

I'm talking about external 3H. You are talking about internal 3H.

I try to avoid internal 3H discussion. It's just too abstract for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In your practice the focus is on the body from what is shown.
In my practice the focus is on the mind, as shown...

Not every technique is suitable for external 3H training. If you stand still and punch, you can train "elbow coordinate with knee" (some styles don't even train this), but you can't train "hand coordinate with foot". For a beginner, the right technique needs to be selected for external 3H training purpose.

If you train the throwing art, you can train all the external 3H. This is why the throwing art requires the external 3H more than the striking art does.

In this video, his

- right-hand coordinates with his right foot.
- left hand coordinates with both feet.
- left-hand coordinates with his left foot.
- right hand coordinates with both feet.

 

[Appledog]

 

[windwalker099]

Once my Sifu Patrick Kelly asked me to throw a punch. Before anyone could blink my fist was touching his chest. He said, he wasn't ready that time, do it again.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

The video list, "0:00 Patrick Kelly"
as the first performer, would this be the same "Patrick Kelly" as mentioned ?
If so, I am mistaken in my posting of a noted taiji teacher with same name "Patrick Kelly"

The Wushu video is a good example of the difference between coordination and harmonization.

The focus and function differ in how various martial arts use what is called the "Six Harmonies" (六合, Liù Hé).

Depending on the art, this is sometimes referred to as "Three Internal Harmonies and Three External Harmonies combined as one" (三内三外, 合一).

All CMA incorporate both internal and external elements, they are categorized based on their primary focus.

General statement :

External (外家, wàijiā) Shaolin based or derivatives emphasize physical techniques and strength.

Internal (内家, nèijiā) Taiji (Tai Chi), Bagua (Pa Kua), and Xingyi (Hsing I) emphasize the cultivation of internal energy (qi), mental focus, and the Six Harmonies (六合, Liù Hé), based on philosophical contexts and theories.

Different approachs used to deal with same problems.

 

[windwalker099]

I try to avoid internal 3H discussion. It's just too abstract for me.

Agree, also "abstract" for me , reading some of the things by those who write about it
with out being able to "show" what they write about,,,,

If they could do it much of what they write, they’d understand it doesn’t make sense .

Whether one agrees with it or not,
not much of an issue for me..

Everyone has their own experience.

In China, it wasn't talked about much if at all...Everything was hands on
then "mentioned"

Also kind of confusing in that skill sets would be developed often with out
a clear understanding of "why"

Much like being able to ride a "bike" not knowing
the "why" one can ride it....

does it matter ?

In China, if one goes to an acupuncturist, for example . In the treatment, they will ask the patient if they feel the “Qi” the patient will respond with a yes or no .

They don’t ask the patient do you “ understand “Qi”

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I’m going to mix some up now to go with a platter of Chi balls. Good football snacks for the early games.

So, you are going to drink it? It’s not purple I hope.

 

[marvin8]

I'm talking about external 3H. You are talking about internal 3H.

I try to avoid internal 3H discussion. It's just too abstract for me.

Per my post #83, other MAs and combat sports discuss/train both no touch and external harmony skills. They train as they fight. They may use no touch to control and position resistant opponents then finish with kick, strike, grapple or lock. From last Saturday's UFC Macau, Chinese and other professional MAists use these skills in fighting...

Kick: Head kick by Shi Ming and Muslim Salikhov.

https://imgur.com/Nu2HxLL

https://imgur.com/zJXP0gW

Strike: Overhand by Donghun Choi and elbow by Zhang Mingyang.

https://imgur.com/2vfOTdx

https://imgur.com/W6p0niU

 

[marvin8]

(Continued)

Grapple: Osoto gari/front cut by Petr Yan. Kosoto gake by Shi Ming.

https://imgur.com/vkvGY6x

Lock: Rear naked choke by Fernandes.

https://imgur.com/Gw9vNUr

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They train as they fight.

In striking art, it may be possible. In throwing art, this can be very difficult.

If you have not drill hip throw 1000 times with your partner, trying to make your hip throw work in the ring can be difficult (if not impossible). When you train hip throw, you have to apply external 3H.

 

[windwalker099]

"Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force" can only be used in defense. It has no offense ability. It's just arm and body unified as one unit. When you use arm to deal a force, your arm won't collapse. It's just CMA "common sense".

When I teach long fist and ask students to stay in bow-arrow stance back reverse punch posture, I will push their arm side way to see if I can bend their arm on their elbow joint, or shoulder joint. If I can move their whole body without collapse their body structure, that mean they have "Peng Jin". So "Peng" exist in all MA systems and not just in Taiji.

Mentioned that our use and understanding of this is different.

The way I explain it with those I work with

A little different...

What you describe seems more oriented towards what is called "tensegrity."

In our testing of (Peng Jin, 棚劲).
it’s not about "moving" the structure. or being able to support anything by the structure as it is about feeling the fullness within it.

Expanding force (Peng Jin, 棚劲).

This means a structure can be empty, but not collapsed, full but not expanding.
Open and close refer to the ability to regulate this throughout the whole body or sections of it.


Note: pointing out differences, not correctness.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it is about feeling the fullness within it.

You can't hurt your opponent by "feeling the fullness within it". I'm talking about fighting. You are talking about "self-cultivation" which has nothing to do with fighting.

A: I train for inner peace, self-cultivation, culture study, be a good person, world peace, ...
B: If a punch land on your face, will you still feel "inner peace"?

If I create the Taiji form, I will put a left punch after the right Peng.

- left comb hair,
- right control hand,
- left punch to the face.

It's a perfect combo along with this footwork (comb hair is not in this video).

This is one of my favor footwork drills in my 4 miles walking/training. I will do both

- right leg forward with right Peng, left leg forward with left Peng.
- right leg forward with left Peng, and left leg forward with right Peng (showing in this clip).

 

[Appledog]

You can't hurt your opponent by "feeling the fullness within it". I'm talking about fighting. You are talking about "self-cultivation" which has nothing to do with fighting.

A: I train for inner peace, self-cultivation, culture study, be a good person, world peace, ...
B: If a punch land on your face, will you still feel "inner peace"?

If I create the Taiji form, I will put a left punch after the right Peng.

- left comb hair,
- right control hand,
- left punch to the face.

It's a perfect combo along with this footwork.

It is equally fair to ask, if you feel inner peace, would you want to punch my face?

As mentioned by many, the training is actually the same, except for a few nuances. Even Feng Zhi Qiang said when he was training harder styles before he met Hu Yaozhen, there was significant standing. What is it do you think they are training, that is so different? In the end it is about wu de. The art is essentially wu de, everything about it is wu de. You will notice that it is the things that come from outside that discord with wu de the most. It is the things from inside that concord with wu de.

 

[windwalker099]

You can't hurt your opponent by "feeling the fullness within it". I'm talking about fighting. You are talking about "self-cultivation" which has nothing to do with fighting.

A: I train for inner peace, self-cultivation, culture study, be a good person, world peace, ...
B: If a punch land on your face, will you still feel "inner peace"?

The question is...
1. if it lands on a solid object absorbing the full impact unable to change. ..,

2. or one that is able to change at the slightest increase of pressure..say 4 oz....
did it really "land"

3. or it lands but runs into a structure supported by the whole body
and bounces out.

Either way, if a punch lands on your face, it lands on your face.

You can't hurt your opponent by "feeling the fullness within it". I'm talking about fighting.

No you were talking about how you test it,,,not how you fight with it.

You are talking about "self-cultivation" which has nothing to do with fighting.

No I was talking about the way we test for it, based on a different idea.

You can't hurt your opponent by "feeling the fullness within it".

of course you can,
help them to hurt themselves if they are unable to change.

Many of the demos you often ask about are examples of this idea in use...

It's like touching something that seems to be there, falling into it because it feels empty, and then being thrown out by it before you can react to the emptiness as it becomes full.

The Change state is quite fast....

There are other aspects along with it, just sharing the basic idea....

If you listen closely he talks about (Peng Jin, 棚劲).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you feel inner peace, would you want to punch my face? ... It is the things from inside that concord with wu de.

Yes, I will fight you if you and I are competing in a tournament. You test your skill, and I test mine.

When my SC teacher wrestled with his own father, my SC teacher tried to throw his father. MA "testing" has nothing to do with Wu De.

My long fist teacher loved to talk about Wu De. One time I competed in a Karate tournament. My opponent used "earth" strategy. He moves in inch by inch with strong defense. I stepped back twice outside of the ring, and I lose that tournament. I asked my long fist teacher what strategy I should use to deal with "earth" strategy. His respond letter told me to pay attention on Wu De. Even today, I still don't understand what Wu De has to do with my Karate tournament.

I just don't think I can use Wu De to defeat my opponent in that Karate tournament.

 

[marvin8]

In striking art, it may be possible. In throwing art, this can be very difficult.

If you have not drill hip throw 1000 times with your partner, trying to make your hip throw work in the ring can be difficult (if not impossible). When you train hip throw, you have to apply external 3H.

I meant to say, "They fight how they train." Their drills transfer to fighting. That can include drilling "Ti, Da, Shuai, Na." If you only train self-cultivation or bouncing people away, you may not be good at hip throw in a fight.

Authentic Chinese martial arts MUST have "Ti, Da, SHUAI, Na"... here is the SHUAI.. Shuai Jiao. We can do it with jacket or without. These are essential combat skills #shuaijiao #kungfu #martialarts #martialartstraining | New York San Da

Authentic Chinese martial arts MUST have "Ti, Da, SHUAI, Na"... here is the SHUAI.. Shuai Jiao. We can do it with jacket or without. These are essential combat skills #shuaijiao #kungfu #martialarts...

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At 37:52, Tim Cartmell on tai chi strategy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I meant to say, "They fight how they train." Their drills transfer to fighting. That can include drilling "Ti, Da, Shuai, Na." If you only train self-cultivation or bouncing people away, you won't be good at hip throw in a fight.

I agree with you 100% on this.

I still don't understand why people want to spend time to train "bounce people away" then to train "using hip throw to throw opponent". Hip throw is the mother of all throws.