reactions

[Kung Fu Wang]

What was posted aligns with my experiences.

Apparently, it does not align with yours .

Belief has nothing to do with it.

Let's assume this is real. What's the combat value of this. Can you use this ability to kill your enemy?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is this teacher also teaching his student the same ?

He says if you use force it's not taiji, it's not the kind of force that taiji uses..

Is this true?

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei was one of Master Wang Peisheng disciple's, btw.
Wu Style taiji

​

No he is not teaching the same thing, He is finding their center and using it. I was at a seminar last weekend and the teacher could so the same thing. It was not magic, it was not the electric shock, its not qi projection magic, the upper videos show, the upper videos are, well, in a word, fake. '

If you don't see the difference, further discusion is pointless

 

[windwalker099]

Let's assume this is real. What's the combat value of this. Can you use this ability to kill your enemy?

Have you killed some one?

If you have not yet, how can you ask the question?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you killed some one?

If you have not yet, how can you ask the question?

The key point is "IF".

I always ask a Taiji guy. If you want to kill your enemy, which move will you use?

If a MA skill cannot be used to defeat my opponent, why should I spend my time to train it?

 

[windwalker099]

I was at a seminar last weekend and the teacher could so the same thing. It was not magic, it was not the electric shock, its not qi projection magic, the upper videos show, the upper videos are, well, in a word, fake. '

If you don't see the difference, further discusion is pointless

You was at seminar

No one mentioned magic

Theories were presented by each teacher,
Expressing what they do in a little different way, demoing the same skill sets.

What theory do you disagree with

 

[windwalker099]

@ Kung fu Wang

How would you describe the following as different descriptions of applied force, rather than actions:

Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force
An Jin (按劲): Pressing force
Cai Jin (采劲): Plucking force
Lie Jin (裂劲): Splitting force

You have not addressed this question

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You have not addressed this question

"Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force" can only be used in defense. It has no offense ability. It's just arm and body unified as one unit. When you use arm to deal a force, your arm won't collapse. It's just CMA "common sense".

When I teach long fist and ask students to stay in bow-arrow stance back reverse punch posture, I will push their arm side way to see if I can bend their arm on their elbow joint, or shoulder joint. If I can move their whole body without collapse their body structure, that mean they have "Peng Jin". So "Peng" exist in all MA systems and not just in Taiji.

This is my favor training for "Peng" along with footwork. I can walk 1/2 mile by doing this non-stop (I try to use this to replace my running).

It's time for me to do my daily 4 miles walk/training.

 

[windwalker099]

"Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force" can only be used in defense. It has no offense ability. It's just arm and body unified as one unit. When you use arm to deal a force, your arm won't collapse. It's just CMA "common sense".

When I teach long fist and ask students to stay in bow-arrow stance back reverse punch posture, I will push their arm side way to see if I can bend their arm on their elbow joint, or shoulder joint. If I can move their whole body without collapse their body structure, that mean they have "Peng Jin". So "Peng" exist in all MA systems and not just in Taiji.

This is my favor training for "Peng" along with footwork. I can walk 1/2 mile by doing this non-stop (I try to use this to replace my running).

It's time for me to do my daily 4 miles walk/training.

@ Xue Sheng

Do you agree with KF Wang’s outline.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@ Xue Sheng

Do you agree with KF Wang’s outline.

No

 

[Xue Sheng]

You was at seminar

No one mentioned magic

Theories were presented by each teacher,
Expressing what they do in a little different way, demoing the same skill sets.

What theory do you disagree with

your first videos in the OP..... nuff said

 

[windwalker099]

The key point is "IF".

I always ask a Taiji guy. If you want to kill your enemy, which move will you use?

If a MA skill cannot be used to defeat my opponent, why should I spend my time to train it?

For many reasons, people go to shooting ranges and fire bullets from guns at targets.
It's understood that bullets fired from a gun can be lethal.

They don't discuss what the gun or bullets can do in terms of harm; instead, they focus on the type of gun and bullets they use.

For me, the discussions of martial arts is similar.

Ben Lo. a noted taiji master was fond of saying..

"Taiji is like a machine gun, compared to a pistol.
Takes awhile to understand how to use it."

 

[windwalker099]

No

What is it that you don't agree with ?
You both seem to agree on the nature of the demos

your first videos in the OP..... nuff said

Asked about the theory used to explain the videos..
not about the actions in the videos.

Trying to understand both you and KF Wangs view points...
before pointing out commonalties in the theories used by the teachers in their videos
and other teachers using the same methods based on the same theories..

 

[marvin8]

No he is not teaching the same thing, He is finding their center and using it. I was at a seminar last weekend and the teacher could so the same thing. It was not magic, it was not the electric shock, its not qi projection magic, the upper videos show, the upper videos are, well, in a word, fake.

If you don't see the difference, further discusion is pointless

In that video, Wang Peisheng describes the body mechanics in a practical manner...

At 1:16, "They said it best in the Taiji manual Tai Chi Chuan Ching [Canon]. When the weight is on the left, the left hand is empty; when the weight is on the right, it drops into nothing.... At this point here [gestures], if put power into it…, that would be “double weighted....”

At 2:26, "See? When this hand comes at me [extends right lead hand], there’s nothing there. Actually, in this movement, my weight shifts onto this leg [right lead]. And then, this [my right hand] becomes empty. And when this emptiness meets my opponent fullness… I lead him over here [left rear leg]. This, he’s full here too. When I counterattack, I lead with the empty hand
on the weighted leg side... And the right leg, I use the left hand and right leg…UP! ...Once that movement is finished, once your weight has shifted to your right leg, then the right hand becomes empty and you get this sort of movement [gestures]."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you killed some one?

If you have not yet, how can you ask the question?

When Adam Hsu taught me the 2nd praying mantis form, there is a move that you strike with the back of your mantis hook. I asked Adam, "Can you kill someone with this kind of strike?" He was not very happy about my question. But in the praying mantis system, there are a lot of striking that used the back of your hooking hand. I think I asked a valid question. A valid question deserves a valid answer.

There are so many useful MA skills that deserve training time such as a strong

- head lock,
- grip,
- kick,
- punch,
- ...

I always like to ask a simple question, "Do I really need to develop this skill (such as a push) in combat?" If I will never use this skill in combat, why should I spend time to train it?

 

[Appledog]

What was posted aligns with my experiences.

Apparently, it does not align with yours .

Belief has nothing to do with it.

Experiences? The problem with this is that everyone who is "in on the joke" knows that for a definitive fact the demos shown are staged.

The reason why is if the student attempted to counter what the teacher does, it would create an unpredictable situation; in such a situation, there is a chance the student could delay the teacher's move long enough to create doubt in what is being demonstrated. Thus the teacher would lose face. Also if the teacher hurts the student (depending on how much the student wants to fight the demo) and the teacher has to injure or cause shock to the student it can give an impression that the teacher beats up the students. I've been thrown by my teacher and he was sorry that he might have hurt me (this was in private). Imagine if such a thing happened in the demo.

There are stories of people doing this (trying to resist too much in a demo) and getting kicked out of a lineage by the way. I've witnessed it myself personally in class, and I have heard stories about it. Surely you know these things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They don't discuss what the gun or bullets can do in terms of harm; instead, they focus on the type of gun and bullets they use.

For me, the discussions of martial arts is similar.

You train shooting skill so you can kill with your gun if needed. If you have no courage to kill with your gun, you should never own a gun.

Does this guy train shooting for fun, or for effective killing?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What was posted aligns with my experiences.

Apparently, it does not align with yours .

Belief has nothing to do with it.

Demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity. The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it. If your opponent helps you to finish, that's fake demo by definition.

One time I gave a public demo with my student. My student was an Aikido BB. When I threw him, he jumped. After the demo, I asked him why he did jump. He told me it might make the demo look good. I told him that I don't need that.

 

[windwalker099]

Experiences? The problem with this is that everyone who is "in on the joke" knows that for a definitive fact the demos shown are staged.

Are you suggesting the teachers and students are faking their reactions because ?

How can you prove this, if you can't it might fall under defamation ?
Something according to some, is against the policies of this site.

There are stories of people doing this (trying to resist too much in a demo) and getting kicked out of a lineage by the way. I've witnessed it myself personally in class, and I have heard stories about it. Surely you know these things.

no need for stories

What I know is what happened to those who also tired the same thing with my teacher.
Not a good outcome. In normal demos people tended to feel sick, and so did not really like to be the
volunteer for them. "feeling sick" felt like you wanted to throw up...

The thread is not about affirming or denying the practice itself.
It was an attempt to show that there is a commonality based on slightly different theories about the practice, presented by different teachers who use similar demonstrations to help explain their work and teach their students.

 

[windwalker099]

You train shooting skill so you can kill with your gun if needed. If you have no courage to kill with your gun, you should never own a gun.

Does this guy train shooting for fun, or for effective killing

It doesn't take courage for pulling a trigger, unfortunately, some people find this out after it's too late..
It does take training to understand not to.

When Adam Hsu taught me the 2nd praying mantis form, there is a move that you strike with the back of your mantis hook. I asked Adam, "Can you kill someone with this kind of strike?" He was not very happy about my question.

Morality not the topic of this thread.
Met Adam, teaching 8-step mantis, when he was teaching in SF GG park..nice guy...

 

[windwalker099]

Demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity. The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it. If your opponent helps you to finish, that's fake demo by definition.

One time I gave a public demo with my student. My student was an Aikido BB. When I threw him, he jumped. After the demo, I asked him why he did jump. He told me it might make the demo look good. I told him that I don't need that.

Intent not the topic of this thread.

The videos presented by different teachers are examples of their work with their students, demonstrating a theory and allowing them to feel it.

So far, no one seems willing to address the theories, which might help explain many of the reactions. To examine them objectively, one might compare the reactions to what is stated in the theory.