React to an attack or Pre-Empt it? Any advice?

[thescottishdude]

Jenna, I saw on your profile that your art is Aikido. Doesn't that mean you should prefer waiting until they attack first?

The U.S. military have their own varient of martial arts in which they always opt for getting the first strike. Personally, I'd never increase the argument to a fight myself so i'd always defend and then attack. But when facing an agressinve opponent getting the initial attack in is usually best, but you can't just go hunting people down that you don't like and giving them a kicking. Or diving through their front windows with a crowbar and a knife...

 

[Ross]

Hey Ross
Thanks for this, yes it does help certainly. I would agree completely though I think that the legal side is maybe not the biggest concern. I know you Kenpo guys like to go in hard and fast but I would ask you, is retreat and play the "react" card ever a methodology you would apply in your Kenpo? I wonder can you understand that retreat seemed the best option to me? I am concerned that if I preempt, I will make a bigger mess of an already messy situation. In which case, waiting might seem the more prudent option. Does this make any sense?

The only analogy I can think is that I'm sure you've had matches in your time where maybe you had held back at tha start to see what you opponent had in his arsenal. That doesn't have to mean you let him hit you but rather it's a way to avoid going in too slow and getting caught out by his speed for example. Sorry that's probably not such a good analogy...

Regardless, thank you, your thoughts are helping my thoughts

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Hey Jenna

That analogy works for me. Yes, you can either act or react. I just mentioned the act first tactic.

Primarily our system is based upon a reaction to an aggressive action. One thing to take into account is the psychology of the attack and the aggressors actions relating to this. In Kenpo we also sometimes employ a 'framing' principle - I'm not sure if you have this in Aikido? - basically it involves positioning your hands and body into 'submissive' positions but you are actually a) inviting the aggressor to strike to your chosen target thus allowing you to execute the technique that you want to do. b) it can be enough to make the aggressor think that they have won the verbal sparring and that is sometimes enough.

Hope this helps!

 

[MJS]

Hey Mike

Thanks! At least it's some small comfort to know this isn't uncommon. I can recall the whole conversation verbatim Mike and at no time did I feel anyone was taking my allegations with anything resembling the gravity I felt was due. I guess maybe I don't look like the sort of person to warrant it. But You know, that's something I hadn't actually thought of - going back to the police. Of course, I've absolutely nothing to go on at this stage having dumped everything out. Still, I'm in another town so maybe that is an option.

Thank you again for this advice

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna,

Sorry that you didn't get the results you were hoping for the first time. Hopefully, things will get better for you. In the future, if something like this happens again, it may be a good idea to keep the numbers, messages, etc. of any sort of harrassment that you're getting as proof. The more evidence you have, the better it'll look.

As far as the pre-emptive striking goes, if you haven't already, take a look at the two links that I posted in this thread. Quite a bit of good info. in there!:ultracool

Mike

 

[Jenna]

Hey Jenna

That analogy works for me. Yes, you can either act or react. I just mentioned the act first tactic.

Primarily our system is based upon a reaction to an aggressive action. One thing to take into account is the psychology of the attack and the aggressors actions relating to this. In Kenpo we also sometimes employ a 'framing' principle - I'm not sure if you have this in Aikido? - basically it involves positioning your hands and body into 'submissive' positions but you are actually a) inviting the aggressor to strike to your chosen target thus allowing you to execute the technique that you want to do. b) it can be enough to make the aggressor think that they have won the verbal sparring and that is sometimes enough.

Hope this helps!

Hey there Ross,
Thank you. I like that and yes it does help. That's clever is that! No I haven't got anything like that my hands are usually centred, roughly corresponding to the hara. But, your "framing" technique sounds like a very clever way to work a real-life fight. Thank you.

Seeing your location makes me yearn for home. What's the weather today? It's sunny as h3ll here in Liege so please tell me it's rainy and drizzly down where you are and cheer me up for not being back in England - what's the latest on Rooney btw? I've heard nothing since I left on the 1st

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Jenna,

Sorry that you didn't get the results you were hoping for the first time. Hopefully, things will get better for you. In the future, if something like this happens again, it may be a good idea to keep the numbers, messages, etc. of any sort of harrassment that you're getting as proof. The more evidence you have, the better it'll look.

As far as the pre-emptive striking goes, if you haven't already, take a look at the two links that I posted in this thread. Quite a bit of good info. in there!:ultracool

Mike

Hey Mike,

Thanks!! Yes, I did follow those links - I'm familiar with the SFUK site from previously, but I genuinely and sincerely appreciate your help and advice.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Hello all my sweet Martial Talk muffins

Thank you all so much for your sincere advice, suggestions and tactics. I am concerned I have pushed the limits of your goodwill on this thread and perhaps on the forum in general. However, for anyone still reading I just want to give you a final update before I move on... It seems that I underestimated the Politie Brugge having had a "social" call from a wonderful lady police officer there - one of the few that I trusted to give my new mobile contact number before leaving Bruges. She recalled the name of my "friend" (huh, yeah) following a callout they'd had. By her account, there was some sort of fracas or scene at the Botaniek not long after I had left. My "friend" turned up apparently worse for booze and created a bit of a fuss with the front of house staff and the concierge and got himself arrested fortunately. Unfortunately he was released the following morning under some sort of non-mandatory instruction or conditional bail as I understood her explanation, to return to England. Her call was on the pretext of information for my safety though I believe it was mostly to flag up a warning since she suggested again I return to England and contact the met. Although I'm glad he has drawn the attention of the local police back in Bruges and maybe with the police fédérale if they're linked together like that, I don't believe, sorry, I KNOW for a fact that he's not the type to comply with non-mandatory instructions.

So... thanks again to everyone for the advice, the suggestions, the tactics and yes, the hugs!! I have made a decision to go for the pre-empt. I'll not waste any more cyberspace talking to myself but just want to say to any stalwarts still with me, tot ziens mijn vrienden

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey there big Rich
Man, your posts don't make me feel bad, no sir. They reverberate with truth and clarity. It is me that's at fault because I am envious of those who can do what I can never hope to. I'm always willing to learn though which is why I am maybe getting stuck in a loop of asking questions.

Thank you again for your advice and help. Believe me, it is appreciated
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna,

Asking questions is good. To doubt is to open the mind for further learning.

I have given some thought to this on what I could say to help you.

I could tell the story of the Ugly Duckling and the Swan. So you could be happy with what you are, but as a human being we adapt to our environment and also continue to learn. So that would not be the right thing.

I could crack a joke about pyschologists and the defendor and attacker mentality and say that no Psych can change you, for you have to want to change yourself, but that also does not ring true, nor is it my way for a serious matter.

I could tell you another story about a cat or dog that was domesticated pet that ended up going feral to survive, as they did adapt to their surroundings, but it would be an analogy that could be missed by some.

I could tell you to get agressive and to stop the bully, but I am not in the situation and cannot review all the data, that which is not said, which is heard but processed in the background, and also seen and processed. Yet this is difficult to do in the written medium not knowing all possible situations, when from my previous stories I was trying to state that it requires an expereince to read the opponent.

If you can read the opponent and know the risk is that of a black eye then one can try and if you fail it is a lost fight and not a lost life. This could work if you could watch another person in action and gain from their experience as well, and deal with understanding that most people just posture.

But all of that is Male on Male fighting and posturing which is not Male stalking or attacking a female for what ever reason that is not good.

So, how do I step outside that box and put myself into your shoes. To walk a mile in your shoes without really knowing you, and what your experiences are. That is difficult at best and almost impossible at other times.

So, I will try my best here with what I can. You stated you study Aikido, and what little I know of that art they do not punch or strike and if they do it is not a major part of the art. The art concentrates more on using the opponents energy against them. Or to use their energy to assist you and throwing or controlling them. (* NOTE: Throws and contol techniques are also Breaks, same basic motions just a different application. *)

So, if you walk around looking like a victim, and the bully or predator will use your fear or energy against you. The object is to be smart and not put yourself into a location to meet the bad guy, but if it is there, do not give them energy that they can use back against you.

(* Note: This does not mean you cannot be afraid, or have fear, for many times I have been afraid, and this is almost always when things would then get out of hand and someone would get hurt, But that is me and not you. So it is ok to have fear, just channelt it into adrenaline to be used for you, and not to cripple you or have you fall into submissive behavior. *)

Of course some cultures are worse than others in respect to how women are treated or expected to act, so mileage will vary.

If you are wary and alert then most of the predators will not attack you for they are looking for easy prey. Of course this does not account for the bad guys who have targeted you for a personal reason or you fit a profile for them. Yet, the more you are aware and aleart the harder it is for them to get a clean shot at you.

Now you can also take this too far, and if you become paranoid then you begin to give off energy that the others can use against you. So healthy respect, just short of paranoia is good.

Keep questioning, keep your eyes open, be aware, and not place yourself in a corner with no way out. Have a back up plan, and work the crowd for reading the situation, and trust your intuition.

Oh and continue to train hard.

 

[Sagat]

:iws:

Plus I'd like to add should you ever be in the position where you have to defend yourself, if you are afraid [everyone will have some fear when put into a dangerous situation], try to control your fear. Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true.

I also beleive that if you know where the conversation is leading, I don't see the point in waiting for your attacker to throw the first punch. Why should you get hurt and risk being permanently injured because of someone's bad temper or threatening behaviour?

I will always try to defuse a potential attacker verbally, but should I be unable to talk my way out of it, I will try to walk away, if they then get in my way, I'll go through them. There is no honour nor are there rules in a street fight, defend yourself accordingly. Having said that though, don't stick around after and be mindful of cameras [should you be outside/inside a bar or club]. You may feel differantly about such situations, I am simply giving my opinion, I don't have any sympathy for people who want to smash my head in or roll me for no reason.


:jediduel: :matrix:

lol, these are cool! :lookie:

 

[Bigshadow]

So... thanks again to everyone for the advice, the suggestions, the tactics and yes, the hugs!! I have made a decision to go for the pre-empt.

Jenna,

Just remember, to pre-empt doesn't have to mean attack. You could subtly give your attacker the opening they need if you feel attack is imminent, this way you will have a good idea of where the attack will come from, from there, you only have to wait for it, no need to rush.


Enjoy the chocolates!

 

[Robert Lee]

Places you go some are more prone to altractions. So a person needs to beaware of this as fact. But not to the point of over reaction. Bars clubs pubs where public drinking is done. there are problems from time to time. Baware have fun IF that is a place you go to. Other places are not as prone. Figure a safe spacing your zone Words can be exchanged with out it being more then that. But set up your zone. Ask the person if they enter that space or you just take the 1 step back. Do not project that you are going to strike. If it comes to knowing you have to just do it. Do not wait for the other person to do it first. But you need to really know it has come to that point. It is not smart to go around and feel like every body is a possible threat. Small things happen all the time. But they are not geared for the fight. Let them go by. just be aware and live on Do what needs to be done when you need to do it. Life is easyer.

 

[Jenna]

Hey all my fantastic friends, come on now here am I trying to stop this big silly train of a thread by pulling the emergency cord and you're all so nice and so helpful you can't stop posting even after I tell ya all it's ok and sorted. I have a whole lotta love for you guys, a WHOLE lot and I'm sending a big hug to each and every one who came on this big silly train of mine just as a little thank you.

All your advice I had in my stupid head when got on the Thalys destined for Ghent. I just got that gut feeling my stinking so-called friend would be there and I went off to intersect his path and I just went right on ahead and called his number on my mobile and said straight out that we honestly needed to get together and TALK rather than escalating the problem over and over. He wanted to meet last night. I mean, it was 1am or something. What an absolute nerve. And obvious from his forceably restrained tone that he wanted to do more than just talk but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and agreed to meet up at noon here at Saint Bavo's where it's open and there are lots of tourists - and police probably I hoped.

It was my honest intention to talk it through, sort it out, reach accord and move on and away from it. I mean, He was being the antagonist all the way through our working career. All I ever wanted to do was fix cars and get on with my friends. I don't know, I just plainly don't know people I guess I'm not cynical enough and should have to start distrusting everyone to avoid getting played for a fool.

I have been there at St Bavo's before and even so, I thought I'd turn up early to scope the place. I guess he thought exactly the same. I saw him first, but the second he caught me in his eye, he came straight at me, no questions, no talk, there was no talk at all, he had no intention of talking things over or coming to me with open intentions, he had nothing good in him at all and he came at me furious to throttle me stinking of booze and the stain of tobacco on his teeth and all I can remember is the state of him and his stupid red striped shirt and that suede jacket looking like he's spilt drink over it or puked on it and taking his arm out onto his weak stance and dropping my weight what little there is and just going back, just put him on the bloody ground Jenna, on the ground and managing to get him round into some stupid kote gaesh or probably not but putting it right on with my knee in his face and just putting it on like I wanted to break him. I wanted to twist him and do damage and hurt him and wanted him to feel that pain the way I was feeling it

...sorry,
I am very shaken and shaking even trying to type this has taken me three quarters of an hour and then paste it in here but I thought it maybe might explain to someone in the same position the same as I was when I found this super forum and all my wonderful friends here and came on looking for help and just tell that person whomever they are that they don't have to take it from anybody

what a mess. The police were there I noticed as soon as I arrived. One up near the big doors, one at the far gable wall I noticed and everyone on here said to be more aware of the surroundings, the group of young guys with backpacks, italian I think I couldn't make out clearly. They helped I knew they would they were all over him like a rugby scrum and the police were very very quick no mess and I couldn't let go of the lock like that sensation from grinding your teeth and wanting to grind your teeth to pebbles I couldn't let go of the lock on his arm and shoulder and my knee grinding into his cheekbone. They dragged me away and the other officer trailed him away to the other side. Witnesses thgough and plenty of them, the young italian guys or spanish im not certain they were adamant about what happened I was attacked. Me and not him. What a mess. I don't even know which police station or where. He will now be deported they said to me. I don't know if theres a receiving officer back home but I don't think it works like that. I have to trust them to relay this back to the Met. I don't know what happens next. I have spent the whole day nearly in politie procedurals where do you live what's your age, where do you work why are you here, who can vouch for you, was ihre beziehung, what identification have you and warum diesen mannangriff machte and the same stuff over and over from different officers and only some is in english and my german is poor but better than the dutch they were babbling at me and I finally put my head in my hands and scream KEINE mehr fragen! I don't even know if that's right but it all stops and somehow I'm back in my hotel.

and I'm sort of hoping someone's out there somewhere and bothered reading all this mess that I've made and I could do with a gee up or I don't know just maybe a hello.

yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[Carol]

Your training has served you honourably, Jenna my friend.

We're all here to listen, to learn, to talk, to read...I can't speak for everyone but I think I speak for perhaps more than myself when I say in no way should you walk away from posting here.

I for one am very, very glad you are safe for the moment, but I think we will all breathe easier once you are at home in the UK.

What you are going through is absolutely NOT trivial. Not for you, not for us.

Do not drop off the world, Jenna. You will have far too many people worrying about you if you do.

 

[Jenna]

My lovely Carol, thank you for reading this for me. Though I feel -and not being rhetorical- I have let down my training and my art in many many stupid and naive ways the fact remains yes, my training did not throw itself overboard off as the ship sank. I say you are too kind giving credit where I don't deserve it at the risk of sounding as if Im fishing for compliment. honestly, i'm not. So long as I know my moon is your moon that can be a sufficient staff of support.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Your training has served you honourably, Jenna my friend.

We're all here to listen, to learn, to talk, to read...I can't speak for everyone but I think I speak for perhaps more than myself when I say in no way should you walk away from posting here.

I for one am very, very glad you are safe for the moment, but I think we will all breathe easier once you are at home in the UK.

What you are going through is absolutely NOT trivial. Not for you, not for us.

Do not drop off the world, Jenna. You will have far too many people worrying about you if you do.

 

[Kacey]

Jenna -

You chose a good place and time - crowded with people, no privacy - and brought the matter to a head; now, hopefully, it's over. As difficult as this situation was, better it should happen the way it did, than you ran into him unexpectedly in a less-populated location.

Take a deep breath, relax, and continue to work through both the process and the experience. Do something you enjoy. Have a drink (but don't overdo it tonight). Don't try to push this into the background and ignore it, because it will pop up until you have processed it thoroughly for yourself.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna -

You chose a good place and time - crowded with people, no privacy - and brought the matter to a head; now, hopefully, it's over. As difficult as this situation was, better it should happen the way it did, than you ran into him unexpectedly in a less-populated location.

Take a deep breath, relax, and continue to work through both the process and the experience. Do something you enjoy. Have a drink (but don't overdo it tonight). Don't try to push this into the background and ignore it, because it will pop up until you have processed it thoroughly for yourself.

Thank you Kacey my angel I don't drink though I wish I did. My huge box of chocolates are my comfort though that is a far way from a hug. A silly thing to say perhaps but I have little care for the whether or not

Thank you for your advice. In truth I do not know what to do next or what to think. I am here maybe to load my head up with other stuff for a while. It is going on 3am here I am tired but cannot sleep for staring at the moon and retracing everything.

You are a very very clever lady and I promise I will re-read your words when the fog lifts and allows the captain to see the harbour.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[tshadowchaser]

you faced the situation and met it head on. you came out on top and that is good. You used your head in picking the place and time that was excellent. Hopefuly that will be the end of it.
Go site seeing tomorow and try to enjoy the day
put this behind you and dont bring it into your mind to offten its sometimes beter that way but never forget it.
If when you get back home you happen to find your slef in the area of the local police stop by and make sure they are aware of this persons activities
enjoy the rest of your time travling around the country or areas you want to visit
sheldon

 

[MartialIntent]

Jenna - I'm just seeing your post now. What you just did and how you handled yourself is an absolutely undeniable testament to your strength of will. For what little comfort it may be, I have great admiration for you and for what you did. I think you did yourself proud.

Moreover, you did and do us all proud.

Practically, you should have no trouble whatsoever having a restraining order imposed on this monkey. Maybe when your train of thought is back on the tracks you can get yourself back to the local police station there and get their contact details or whatever written evidence they are at liberty to provide you with. When you get back home to Blighty, pass on the information to your local station in London and make certain you go to your solicitor as a matter of urgency. They will handle it from there so please stop worrying. I PM'd you a UK dot-gov link that might give you a better understanding of where you stand legally right now and what options you have. I know what these types are like believe me but I would be willing to bet you've broken the back of your problem. I hope you can see that yourself. Take heart in the fact that you could have done the thing no other way and go easy on yourself!

And don't you be leaving MT now. As Carol Kaur and others have said, you have shone a unique light around here and I believe you've made a few of us see things differently under it. Take good care!

Sincere respects!

 

[Explorer]

O, ye begging at the door of wisdom!
(I can be every bit as arcane as you)

My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.

And, yes, someone pulling a weapon on you is an aggressive act.

I would add something to that ... someone threatening you is an aggressive act. I think it's a mistake to wait for the first punch. Steps must be taken earlier to avoid a violent confrontation. But once the threat (yes, threat) is real, action must be taken immediately. A broad legal definition for the legitimate use of force is when you or another (innocent) is in danger of the immediate use of unlawful force. In a situation such as this ... pre-emptive action may be your best chance to walk (run) away with your health. It may also help reduce injuries to yourself and the aggressor. To my way of thinking ... this a more humane way.

 

[pstarr]

As the others have already said, avoid the situation altogether if at all possible.

If it isn't...we believe that the attack begins in the mind. By the time the body begins to carry it out, you're playing a game of "catch up." When you sense that the attack is imminent, apply your defensive measures at full tilt boogie.

 

[Calm Intention]

Fake diplomatic efforts and attack their neighbor; besides, they may have Oil. If they don't, at least you've expanded your Empire, and will let all else know that you are a force to be reckoned with.

Seriously though, I divide potential conflict into singular and plural, un-armed and armed.
Best is to assume that they are armed(knife), and with friends(hidden).

Another aspect is the 'talker' vs. 'silent type'. Mr. Silence scares me more, but doesn't necessarily mean he is more a threat.

Know your environment and personal space(proportional to your ability/capabilty).
If you need to run, then run! Nothing wrong with this.
If you can't, draw them off their center(gravity and intention), and control it as best as possible.
Always be deceptive with punks and all attackers. Out-Wit them.
Go for knees, eyes, throat.

If all else fails, call in lead F-16 strike force for strategic precision Atemi attack.artyon: