Rate My form, Again (updated version)
- Thread starter Runs With Fire
- Start date
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm sorry, no. You need proper instruction. Nothing will change that.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2015
- Messages
- 14,670
- Reaction score
- 6,334
I'm with Flying Crane. Proper instruction is needed. Even just a basic intro will change how you think of that weapon. I'm kind of concern that you scored an 8 on the form and not lower. What was the focus of the competition?
You may have invented the least effective way to fight with two axes. Have you ever used an axe or hatchet for cutting wood?
This is bottom line truth. I'm sorry if it's a bit harsh, but it's exactly true. I mean kudos for getting up & being seen, but there's all sorts of not right with that in there.
You show great courage in creating, performing, and posting video of your form for critique. I compliment you on that. I can think of a few things to criticize, but I suspect you're going to get plenty of that. So let me just say thanks for putting yourself out there and don't stop trying to improve.
lklawson
Grandmaster
My Momma always taught me if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Well, I'm ignoring that advice.
Actually, to be perfectly fair, there were a few techniques in that kata that would actually be useful; any time you used just one ax to make a descending angle cut flowing from high on one side to low on the other, and the one front-pushing/snap kick. That's honestly just about it.
Everything else about this kata left me aghast. I was particularly flabbergasted by turning the axes around in the hand and thrusting with the haft while laying the bit against your own flesh. I'm struggling to find anything but the most low percentage and rare application possible for that particular movement.
As a guy who teaches colonial american tomahawk (as opposed to "native american tomahawk"), I would never teach my students to do 80% of what I just saw because it's pretty much only good for getting the user killed. I would, however, teach them to be very cautious when facing a person performing such movements because they tend to make "tactical application errors" (for lack of better terminology) which is where the opponent is so unfamiliar with fighting with that weapon (or maybe just fighting) that they will attack into what they believe is an opening, disregarding their own safety, and end up getting both themselves and my student killed.
Half of the reason your kata is just wrong on multiple levels is because you apparently have no training in the weapon and so don't really know any better. You're trying to make it up as you go. I get that and I appreciate the difficulty and effort required for the experimentation process. If this were an early culture just coming into melee weapons, if you survived various fights, you'd keep what worked and discard what didn't until you had a reasonably "high percentage success" system. Of course, if you didn't survive, then your "low percentage" techniques would die with you and Darwin's thesis would apply itself to the evolution of ax fighting in your village.
Probably the other half of what is wrong with the kata is that your weapons are laughably light "demonstration" toys, apparently made of aluminum pie plates and papier-mache. Because of that the weapons have absolutely frick'n ZERO "flow" in this kata. An ax made for chopping crap has heft. It's an exceptionally "point forward" balanced weapon with a remarkably "heavy" head. You don't gingerly flip it about or slowly move it, and certainly not the stilted, halting uncoordinated and "un-linked" movements of the kata. You get it moving and then you give it its head and just "guide" it along the path you control. Axes used as weapons tend to be very "choppy" and come to sudden stops on impact and, when the impact is missed, the movement tends to be very circular and flowing, with the weapon pivoting on the axis of the wrist, elbow, or shoulder. If you try to regularly and frequently "stop" an actual ax from moving once you've set it on its course, you'll 1) fail a lot and 2) get repetitive stress injuries such as tendinitis or worse.
My first advice echos what has been oft repeated above. Go take some lessons from someone who knows what they're doing.
Failing that, if you insist on continuing to try to go it on your own and reinvent the wheel, then put down those silly toys. They are seriously HINDERING you in important ways. Most importantly, it gives you a false body impression of how the weapon moves and how you have to manipulate your body to move it. Buy one of these super cheap double-bit axes and grind the edges blunt so you don't hack your own leg off when practicing (yes, it has happened!). Then start "working" with it and learning how to make the weapon move and flow from one position to the next while learning how to get it to do that without getting your body injured. Then buy one of these cheap "choppers" and go find some wood to chop. Preferably this will be standing dead wood out on your (or a friend's) property, but if that's not an option then buy Landscaping Ties or 4x4's from the lumber yard and plant them like a post in your yard (this is called a "pell") and hack on them. Practice chopping across at it like it was an actual person. Then practice "missing" because most people won't just stand there and let you plant an ax in them; they tend to move and you need to know how to "flow" the weapon through when it misses (which will likely be more often than not). You'll also need to know how to wrench the weapon free when it bites and what to do when the weapon "misses long" and "hooks" behind the target. To be honest, you might want to buy two of those choppers and blunt one of them to start with because you'll probably still have misses which swing your ax back into your body (the leg and your own back/side are the most common spots). Don't do any of this live practice when you're alone if you can possibly help it. Make sure there's someone near by who can call 911 in an emergency or, at the very least, keep a cell phone on you. Also when you're doing this "live edge" pell practice, ensure that your cutting area is safe. I recommend following the Boy Scouts of America guidelines for a safe chopping area. If at some point you finally get to know the weapon, you can move on from chopping and cutting wood to hanging a piece of meat, preferably a side of pig. The action of the weapon in the meat, ribs, and long bones is... um... "illuminating" to say the least.
I know this seems harsh but remember you did ask for critique. I hope you'll take it constructively.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I can't find anything about your critique to disagree with. I wanted to agree in particular with the bit above.
As I have been expanding my involvement with traditional kobudo training, I have been thinking a lot about non-projectile weapons and implements that can be used as weapons in particular. I have asked myself the questions you outlined. How does it work? What are the natural movements that facilitate its use as a weapon? Is it defensive or offensive or both? How would it be employed in those capacities?
A friend sent me a 10 pound short-handled sledgehammer as a joke. I told him I could make a kata out of it. Well, now that I spend some time with it, probably not. It's frankly too heavy for me; I'd need more upper-body strength to use it effectively. I did take note of the way it might be used to block, poke with the handle, strike, etc. It would just be too slow to be effective for me. However, I have figured out a set of basic defensive and offensive movements that I can perform with reasonable dexterity with a dog leash...
Kirk covered most of what I have to say, but I'll try to sum up some of the more important points.
1) An axe is a sharpened weight on the end of a lever. You use it by allowing the momentum of that weight to swing into/through a target. If you don't strike a solid target, the weight of the head will continue on in a circular arc.
2) Using an axe to chop wood should give you some insights into the mechanics of the tool. (Combat use is different, but the underlying physics of the object still apply.)
3) Blade alignment is very important for any edged weapon. It looks like you're not always aware of where your blade is facing. Sometimes that means you won't cut your opponent. Other times it means you will cut yourself.
4) There's really no need to ever use a reverse grip on any axe. (Seriously, see what happens if you try to chop wood with a reverse grip.) Using a reverse grip with a double-bladed axe is just asking to have that back blade bounce into your own arm.
There's more problems I could point out (and I had an even longer list for your original video), but the biggest issue is just understanding the mechanics of how an axe works.
1) An axe is a sharpened weight on the end of a lever. You use it by allowing the momentum of that weight to swing into/through a target. If you don't strike a solid target, the weight of the head will continue on in a circular arc.
2) Using an axe to chop wood should give you some insights into the mechanics of the tool. (Combat use is different, but the underlying physics of the object still apply.)
3) Blade alignment is very important for any edged weapon. It looks like you're not always aware of where your blade is facing. Sometimes that means you won't cut your opponent. Other times it means you will cut yourself.
4) There's really no need to ever use a reverse grip on any axe. (Seriously, see what happens if you try to chop wood with a reverse grip.) Using a reverse grip with a double-bladed axe is just asking to have that back blade bounce into your own arm.
There's more problems I could point out (and I had an even longer list for your original video), but the biggest issue is just understanding the mechanics of how an axe works.
There seems to be an assumption in the replies that you've not received any formal training with these weapons. I'll just ask: is weapons training a part of your schools curriculum? And if it is, where did your instructor get their training? I ask the last because you train (if I am not mistaken) in Tang Soo Do - which is entirely an empty hand art.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Well, you're right about that. My recollection is that he admitted in his original "rate my form" thread that he didn't have any formal weapons training but I admit my memory may be faulty on that. I'll go look in the old thread momentarily.
If he is receiving actual instruction on the ax, then my recommendation changes slightly. In addition to "find a weapons instructor" I would then add "Don't walk, RUN from the one who taught you this stuff because he apparently doesn't know what he's doing."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
OK, I just reread the original thread. In it, the OP states that he practices TSD, and has some kobudo training in "sword, knife, staff, sai, and single stick forms" and that "one of the main principles of [the original] form was to try and combine my knowledge of Bassia movements with Nahanchi and interpret it through axes without compromising my Tang Soo Do."
I came late to that thread and so chose not to comment. I wish I had. The OP states in that thread that "found the chop to be quite uncontrolled on these and thus deduced that a basic form could be comprised of slashing, parry movemet, and handle strikes" and that "upon further inspection, I see that it is far to fluid. I need to clearly define and punctuate each movement more" both of which are completely backwards for the weapon. I wish now that I had commented because the lack of input allowed the gentleman to take an already misinterpreted weapon even farther from its optimum use. For that I guess I must apologize.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I came late to that thread and so chose not to comment. I wish I had. The OP states in that thread that "found the chop to be quite uncontrolled on these and thus deduced that a basic form could be comprised of slashing, parry movemet, and handle strikes" and that "upon further inspection, I see that it is far to fluid. I need to clearly define and punctuate each movement more" both of which are completely backwards for the weapon. I wish now that I had commented because the lack of input allowed the gentleman to take an already misinterpreted weapon even farther from its optimum use. For that I guess I must apologize.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Devil's advocate time!
First off, I'm with Bill in that you deserve kudos for putting it out there and asking for all the criticism. With that being said, it appears to me that this is from a freestyle karate type of tournament. The weapons kata divisions in those (that I've seen) have no bearing on actual weapon usage, so a good part of the advice you've been given won't apply.
From what I've seen of them, kicks, flips, turns, and lots of yelling are good. Bearing that in mind, the things that I feel you need to work on to make it more presentable in that situation would be to spend more time learning how they move. Your movements tended to be a bit jerky, and you were over-muscling which will cut down your fluidity. I would suggest going with a much lighter version for your forms like others do with super lightweight aluminum "swords" and carbon fiber "staffs". That will allow you to increase your speed and still have an easier time with your fluidity.
Good luck, and don't feel too discouraged by all the criticism as you don't need to know how to actually use them as weapons for karate tournament weapons forms.
First off, I'm with Bill in that you deserve kudos for putting it out there and asking for all the criticism. With that being said, it appears to me that this is from a freestyle karate type of tournament. The weapons kata divisions in those (that I've seen) have no bearing on actual weapon usage, so a good part of the advice you've been given won't apply.
From what I've seen of them, kicks, flips, turns, and lots of yelling are good. Bearing that in mind, the things that I feel you need to work on to make it more presentable in that situation would be to spend more time learning how they move. Your movements tended to be a bit jerky, and you were over-muscling which will cut down your fluidity. I would suggest going with a much lighter version for your forms like others do with super lightweight aluminum "swords" and carbon fiber "staffs". That will allow you to increase your speed and still have an easier time with your fluidity.
Good luck, and don't feel too discouraged by all the criticism as you don't need to know how to actually use them as weapons for karate tournament weapons forms.
lklawson
Grandmaster
While this is true in my experience, every thing about this post offends me.
WTH would you want to learn a "weapons" kata which ONLY application is to look flashy but which not only has NO application to actual weapon use but actually hampers the use of the real weapon by training bad habits and unworkable techniques with toy weapons? Every thing about that concept is, literally, mind bogglingly senseless to me. It's the Martial Arts equivalent of an Escher painting.
But, yes, I admit you're right; if the point of the kata is for an "Extreme Martial Arts" style competition, then much of the advice already given should be ignored. The follow on advice would be to find a gymnastics instructor because there weren't any 360 flips or helicopter kicks.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
While this is true in my experience, every thing about this post offends me.
WTH would you want to learn a "weapons" kata which ONLY application is to look flashy but which not only has NO application to actual weapon use but actually hampers the use of the real weapon by training bad habits and unworkable techniques with toy weapons? Every thing about that concept is, literally, mind bogglingly senseless to me. It's the Martial Arts equivalent of an Escher painting.
But, yes, I admit you're right; if the point of the kata is for an "Extreme Martial Arts" style competition, then much of the advice already given should be ignored. The follow on advice would be to find a gymnastics instructor because there weren't any 360 flips or helicopter kicks.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk we're in the same mind set on this. But XMA has taken baton twirling, toothpick tossing & garden tool flipping to a level of uselessness that's nearly unmatched.
I'm my highly biased opinion, until people learn proper MA & if there are weapons attached with proper basics & fundamentals, we're stuck with that ... sad to say.
I do think it took a lot of guts to put this out there for criticism. Most people would never do such a thing.
However, if you're studying martial arts, then the form needs to teach something about actual use of the weapon.
Otherwise, it's not a martial art. It's a dance class.
If the OP wants to compete in the modern XMA style tournament scene, he probably needs to take more classes in gymnastics, baton-twirling, and yelling really loudly. He's kind of caught in the middle - not enough understanding of the weapon to satisfy traditionalists but not enough flash and razzle-dazzle for the modern approach.
Do you like your left leg? You nearly cut it several times (for example, at about 0:55). Your own body was in the path of the blade on numerous occasions in your form -- this is a very bad thing. Beyond that -- Kirk knows what he's talking about.
Nothing else to say about it, but I liked that statement so much I felt that it needed a repeat Kirk!
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2015
- Messages
- 14,670
- Reaction score
- 6,334
He had some good input, but he was unable to make the changes because of the small amount of time that he had left. Had he asked the question a month before the event then he would have been ok and probably directed to a better weapon to use with Tang Soo Do.
.
Similar threads
Latest Discussions
-
-
Chen Style Basics Series -- Zuǒyòu chājiǎo (left and right rub with heel)- Latest: windwalker099
-
Taiji Quan for Self Defense
- Latest: windwalker099
-
-
-