Forms

[Mantis Leg]

I learned a form last year that was mostly foward and backward from the starting position. six months later I saw a film of the form made 15 years earlier. This version shows a side to side movement. Some of the techniques are done differently, but the form is still recognizable. I asked my instructor which one was right; he said they both were.
I imagine this happens a lot, I'm just looking for feedback.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Some schools/systems teach each form a little differently to each student, tailoring the form to the students ability and mannerism. Some forms are changed a little over time from insructor to instructor because of unconcious or involintary movement that is seen by the student , than repeated by him.
Some systemes never change the form but you can still see differences from school to shool. Maybe one instructor could not quit do a certian low stance so he teaches it from a middle or high posistion. Some may emphasize(sp) something here not there,etc.
Sometime an instructor may not do a form for a long time (maybe there are 75 to 100 in the system) so when he dose teach t he changes it a little without meaning to.
(thankfuly we now have video cameras to help us remember)
MY SUGGESTION IS learn it the way or ways your instructor wants.
Shadow

 

[Cthulhu]

That happens a lot. Look at the Heian/Pinan forms of karate. Shotokan does them a bit differently from Wado Ryu, who does them a bit differently from Kyokushin, who does them a bit differently from etcetera and so forth.

I'd follow tshadowchaser's advice and learn the form the way your instructor teaches it. Later on, if you want to learn the other variations, go for it. Key words here are later on.

Cthulhu

 

[Shinzu]

so many styles change from day to day, from year to year.

i have studied shotokan and tang soo do. both styles are very similar yet their forms differ slightly. even the 2 tsd schools i went to have variations in their forms. it is a wonder why everyone doesn't just do it one way, but i guess thats what makes every martial art original.

 

[Cthulhu]

I occasionally train with a TKD guy who still does the Pinan forms (Pyong An in Korean?). From what I understand, these were eliminated with the rise of the WTF. He's what I call 'old-school' TKD. Nice guy. Good instructor.

I find it fascinating how different styles interpret the same form. Sometimes, it can help give me an idea about what a particular style emphasizes by the way a form differs from other styles.

Cthulhu

 

[tshadowchaser]

I remember the old Pinon forms from when I first studied Tdk ( that was a long time ago) Only know One school in my area that still teach them as basics.
I figure they where changed so as to not look Japanese (you know gotta be pure Korean).
Shadow

 

[Shinzu]

seeing the same forms performed in a different styles also give me insight as to how that style interprets it's techniques and moves.

the same block might be used for a different attack or a kick might be performed slightly different.

i have had the luxury of learning some of my same forms 3 different ways. it's a bit of a pain to unlearn what you know, but in the long run i believe it helps my training. besided i love to learn and work on new forms.:asian:

 

[don bohrer]

Hi guys, This is my first post on this forum.

Mantis,
I witness changes in kata between the senior instructors of American Kenpo here in El Paso. Each of the school owners train under the same instructor (Edward Baime) and each will sometime have a slight variation on movement. However the larger overall movements tend to be the same.

Tshadow,
I dont know how many times while learning a kata or tech I thought I had it right only to learn later I was wrong. Sometimes I am even scratching my head where I went wrong! I have also had to correct students many times over. I have found though I sometimes like my variation better than what is taught, but I try not to consciousely change things. I fallow my instructor closely when my eyes aren't playing tricks on me. Perhaps later I will give myself permission to alter forms and techniques, but for now I need that foundation.

Gthulhu,
I always wondered what the differences between the kenpos where. We have so many and each with it's own flavor. I have only had the pleasure of training with one Ed Parker Kenpoist. He received his training under Huk Planas. His skills are excellent, and I liked his insites on kenpo.
I study American Kenpo here in EL Paso, but it's from the American Kenpo Karate Association under Bill Packer. Originally I thought my org was true Ed Parker Kenpo, but I learn the truth later. We are heavily motion based and allow the techniques to reinforce concepts.
Our techniques are organized differently and have variations on the names. We also have more kata (little tiger, little crane, boxing form, book set, stalking panther, tiger and crane, flowing hands, enter the temple, etc).

Shinzu,
I too enjoy uncovering the original forms in kenpo to better understand them. When Bill Packer and Thomas Conners organized Kenpo into the American Kenpo Karate Association they included kata from other systems. So now I am on a quest to find the original kata and examine them before they where conscripted into kenpo.



Later guys.

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

Hi Don,

You probably already know this, but the tiger and crane and panther (book set) are from Hung Gar. Conner had a partnership with the Tracy's at some point (TRACO) and I suspect that is where those forms come from.

Just be warned that the Tiger and Crane has alot of variation even among the Hung Gar groups, so finding one that is different doesn't mean alot. I think I've seen up to about 4 different versions of T&C.

Hope that helped,

Lamont

 

[don bohrer]

Lamont,

It can get muddled real fast can't it. Well back to work for me.

 

[Shinzu]

welcome don. hope you like it here
forms are the favorite part of my training and even if others do it different you get to experiment a little with different body movements.

i do believe however that a certain "standard" needs to be developed, especially when teaching others. if the time ever comes that i am able to add my own flair to forms, i think i would keep it in the most traditional manner that i was taught.

 

[tshadowchaser]

As I get older I find that i sometimes go to teach a form and will do a move just a little different than it should be(for the form). I get to a move and automaticly do something because:
1> I do the next move when I fight
2> Simular moves in different forms have a different move next and I have been practiceing that one recently

Thankfuly I have someone to watch over my forms and correct these things. My son has been in the art 3 mounths longer than me and he remembers what I forget. Plus that he has everything in writeing.
Shadow

 

[Shinzu]

it always helps to write things down. i do this when i learn new things that i am having a hard time remembering. and with all the different kinds of forms on a style it can be overwelming sometimes.

so many forms are interchangable that it is easy to mix one with the other.

 

[Rob_Broad]

The forms in the martial were originally designed so people could remeber the various techniques of their particular style. many styles only had a few forms and they contained all the knowledge of the system. You often see little subtle difference in forms especially amongst the Okinawan systems. The little differences have often been attributed to little quirks the head of that group had. In one instance everybody step in with the left in one of the forms in one of the Okinawan groups while all the other okinawan stylists stepped in with the right foot, when the guys who stepped with the left foot question why the question went all the way to the head of th clan and it turn out that he stepped with his left because he had hurt himself many yrs before and it was painful to do it with his right.

I heard that story at a seminar a year ago, and I saw all the face of the people when they learn why one group did it one way and everyone else dis it the other way and you could see the disbelieve and then idea started to almost make sense, you decide on whether you chose to believe it or not.

 

[Crane]

Dear Mantis; all the feedback from everyon is great! People change,instructors change styles change, and forms change also.
meny roads can take the student home. the rank of the student and their ability to adapt to the form with the body as well as the mind in the beginning is the true goal of the student and his instructor. one student can only try to rember the moves to the form, while another will do the form, and another will just do movements of the form, another will master the form.
Some forms are short and easy for most people to do while others are very complex and require the student to control his body and make it do moves that his mind tells him he can't . Some styles want everyone to do the form exactly the same as the instructor, other styles allow the student some self expression in their form depending on rank and ability. so there can be a lot of areas for change.
sometime a student will do a form for years an one day the teacher might take him aside and show the student a certain way to breath, or redirect his thoughts on what the strikes or other movements are dowing to the attacker.these things may alter the form a little. but may make the form and the student better.
the instructor sometimes can see what no one else sees.
thanks;
Crane

 

[Shinzu]

sometimes a student will do a form for years an one day the teacher might take him aside and show the student a certain way to breath, or redirect his thoughts on what the strikes or other movements are dowing to the attacker.these things may alter the form a little. but may make the form and the student better.
the instructor sometimes can see what no one else sees.

i totally agree. learning a form and understanding it are two different things.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Once in a while I will take senior student in our system and work with them on their forms. After tweeking the forms a little I sometimes show them how the same move done at a different angle (hight of a kick or punch) can alter the meaning of what is happening Also i may show them the nearve strik application ifthey have not figured it out by then.
Shadow