Ranks, moving, and life getting in the way?

[spidersam]

so real martial arts have kata? Lol. Okay. Well i guess that is one definition.

Hah no, if that’s what you got out of my statement then I definitely didn’t express myself correctly! I see benefits of including kata and benefits of not including kata. I just meant that many styles have kata/forms and was speaking to that particular situation. Got a lot of really usefully information on here from everyone.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Curious if any of you have struggled to earn a black belt/sash because life keeps getting in the way and you can’t stick to one school. My school is 7-10 years to earn your black on average. Black doesn’t mean that much to me because I just love the challenges of MA, but if I were to teach some day on the side it’s a “resume”. I have a feeling by the time I’m ready for black life will probably have me moved to another area and diff school. Thoughts and experiences?

Everything furthers. Relax and enjoy the ride. All will be well.

 

[JR 137]

I'm saying that Boxing doesn't have ranks per se. The "rank structure" is really nothing. It's ONLY related to competition. How many wins, what titles. Only the young adults compete. Get up to my age and you can't compete any more. Boxing is not "small" by any means. It's huge. I'm sorry but, while boxing does have competitive "ranks" (sort of), it is simply not representative of what it looks like you're trying to say. There's just too many people who don't compete or don't compete any more (or can't because competitive boxing is a young man's game). What "rank" did Cus D'Amato have?

Sorry, but I disagree with the way you seem to have cast boxing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Cus D’Amato had an elite professional trainer rank. So did Angelo Dundee and the like. There’s no formal rank, but everyone knows who’s who.

If a relatively unknown trainer relocated and went into a new gym, they’d know where he stands once they see him working with boxers. If a guy who doesn’t compete anymore or never competed joined a new gym where people didn’t know him, they’d know where he stands after a little while.

There’s no formal rank, but there’s acknowledgment of skill, be it personal skill and/or skill at teaching.

And that’s in practically every physical endeavor. Join a bar league softball team and people will know your skill level quickly enough. There’s no rank, but there’s a batting order. And there’s starters and subs. Or join any other sport and it’s the same thing. No formal rank, but there’s a recognition of skill level.

 

[Bruce7]

Cus D’Amato had an elite professional trainer rank. So did Angelo Dundee and the like. There’s no formal rank, but everyone knows who’s who.

If a relatively unknown trainer relocated and went into a new gym, they’d know where he stands once they see him working with boxers. If a guy who doesn’t compete anymore or never competed joined a new gym where people didn’t know him, they’d know where he stands after a little while.

There’s no formal rank, but there’s acknowledgment of skill, be it personal skill and/or skill at teaching.

And that’s in practically every physical endeavor. Join a bar league softball team and people will know your skill level quickly enough. There’s no rank, but there’s a batting order. And there’s starters and subs. Or join any other sport and it’s the same thing. No formal rank, but there’s a recognition of skill level.

I agree with your statement, except a large number of MA schools do not base rank on skill, it is based on a belt.

 

[Bruce7]

View attachment 22132

came down the mountain.... if untrue would be fraudulent. that has longterm negative consequences.

Excellent Cartoon, where did you find it?

 

[Bruce7]

Over the past 3 months I have learn a lot about MA schools. The real money is kids. You have tons of belts between white and black, have belt test every two months. Kids love it and the school makes money. It is a good business model.

IMO what schools like this should do, is when the child gets old enough to be in an adult class, they should reduce the belts to 6 or 7. Make it much harder to get a belt and start them over as white belts. That way the belt they have will have meaning. These schools don't have many adults anyway so they will not lose much money and will make their school more credible. When it takes at least a year to get a belt it has real meaning.

What about the 16 year old black belt who would now be a white belt. After a year of training as a white belt the student should be able to test for what ever belt his knowledge and skill level he is at. At some schools they teach one form called a progressive form, which means a 16 year old black belt would know one form. IMO a black belt should know a minimum of 18 forms. The progressive form is fine for kids, but an adult black belt should know more for the belt to have meaning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with your statement, except a large number of MA schools do not base rank on skill, it is based on a belt.

The belt is a symbol of the rank, not the source of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Over the past 3 months I have learn a lot about MA schools. The real money is kids. You have tons of belts between white and black, have belt test every two months. Kids love it and the school makes money. It is a good business model.

IMO what schools like this should do, is when the child gets old enough to be in an adult class, they should reduce the belts to 6 or 7. Make it much harder to get a belt and start them over as white belts. That way the belt they have will have meaning. These schools don't have many adults anyway so they will not lose much money and will make their school more credible. When it takes at least a year to get a belt it has real meaning.

What about the 16 year old black belt who would now be a white belt. After a year of training as a white belt the student should be able to test for what ever belt his knowledge and skill level he is at. At some schools they teach one form called a progressive form, which means a 16 year old black belt would know one form. IMO a black belt should know a minimum of 18 forms. The progressive form is fine for kids, but an adult black should know more for the belt to have meaning.

The model I like the best is where the youth belt stood in for the white belt when they moved to adult classes. In that system, youth ranks ended at green (white-yellow-blue-green), but the same could be done with any belt. When a youth student joined adult classes, they used their youth belt (we could tell the difference by patches, but the same could be done with white-stripe belts or some such) until they tested to adult yellow.

 

[Bruce7]

The model I like the best is where the youth belt stood in for the white belt when they moved to adult classes. In that system, youth ranks ended at green (white-yellow-blue-green), but the same could be done with any belt. When a youth student joined adult classes, they used their youth belt (we could tell the difference by patches, but the same could be done with white-stripe belts or some such) until they tested to adult yellow.

Yes, that is a good idea. That would probably make a better transition.
IMO I also think new students with belts should be a white belt and testing after a month maybe a good Idea to help them fit in.

 

[JR 137]

Yes, that is a good idea. That would probably make a better transition.
IMO I also think new students with belts should be a white belt and testing after a month maybe a good Idea to help them fit in.

Rather than quote 3 posts, I’ll just quote one.

The belt, up to a certain point, is supposed to be indicative of skill. And other things as well. When you get up there in rank (and usually age), you’ve proven your skill. From some point on that’s different for every school, rank is about your contribution to the art rather than your own skill. Get up to, say 7th dan and it’s all about spreading the art and advancing it one way or another. And promotions are based on that rather than who you can beat up.

Kids’ ranks transitioning into adult ranks are handled very well in my organization IMO. The curricula don’t match up; junior black belts are somewhere between 3rd and 2nd kyu adult syllabus. Kids’ belts have the white stripe going the length of the belt. When a kid becomes adult age, they wear the kid belt and are taught as adults. They wear the kid belt until they earn the comparable adult belt like any other adult would. Junior black belts do the same, but they test for adult black belt like every other adult when they’re ready.

I’ve seen my CI test kids for the comparable adult belt and simply promote them to it during class. It depends on several variables and I completely agreed every time. It’s usually dependent on the kid and the timing.

 

[TSDTexan]

Excellent Cartoon, where did you find it?

on a Facebook group i think.

 

[TSDTexan]

Not really. It's just putting the rank on paper instead of on the waist.

But... you dont wear a bunch of paper around your waist. I can see the setting were, in class, the uniforms have no rank or grade indications.

Everyone is training, through that day or week's curriculum. Those that pass muster get their scroll for that given technique.

 

[TSDTexan]

I like it in concept, but in practice it defines an art by the techniques, rather than the principles. But a similar approach could probably be figured that is more focused on the principles.

IMO, these scrolls are the equivalent of curriculum-based ranks, and stand in nicely for them.

Yes... and yet...
My research into the old system said that the scroll of technique wasn't just the demonstration of ability to perform said technique. It was the technique... some variations of it... principles behind it etc. and a few defenses against said technique.

 

[TSDTexan]

What consequences do you think would occur? Genuine question. I teach a system. You teach a system. Both were invented by someone. Mine by me. Yours by your instructor's instructor. What is tje difference?

legal consequences in some jurisdictions for commiting fraud. Also... getting exposed as a fraud by the MA community at large. Frank Dux is a good example.

Claims should be subject to scepticism.
A personal note:
I spent a great many weeks of my life getting to the truth behind the SBD-MDK and Hwang Kee''s claims about certain Okinawan forms that were in the TSD curriculum and his book.

He claimed to have invented or created the Kicho Hyung forms.
This is demonstrably false.
They were created by Gigo Funakoshi.. and reviewed and named by Gichin Funakoshi. And taught prior to HK developing his art and his later created mdk forms.

Won Kuk Lee brought them back to Korea. One of WKL's first black belts [name witheld by me] was running the classes for Hwang Kee at his first dojang in 1946.

This is the reason for the Shotokan influence in early

This undermines HK's credibility. and ultimately leads to guys like John Hancock demanding an explanation... and not being given one... they leave the organization... sometimes taking a school's student body with them.

Those are some examples of consequences.

 

[Steve]

legal consequences in some jurisdictions for commiting fraud. Also... getting exposed as a fraud by the MA community at large. Frank Dux is a good example.

Claims should be subject to scepticism.
A personal note:
I spent a great many weeks of my life getting to the truth behind the SBD-MDK and Hwang Kee''s claims about certain Okinawan forms that were in the TSD curriculum and his book.

He claimed to have invented or created the Kicho Hyung forms.
This is demonstrably false.
They were created by Gigo Funakoshi.. and reviewed and named by Gichin Funakoshi. And taught prior to HK developing his art and his later created mdk forms.

Won Kuk Lee brought them back to Korea. One of WKL's first black belts [name witheld by me] was running the classes for Hwang Kee at his first dojang in 1946.

This is the reason for the Shotokan influence in early

This undermines HK's credibility. and ultimately leads to guys like John Hancock demanding an explanation... and not being given one... they leave the organization... sometimes taking a school's student body with them.

Those are some examples of consequences.

Frank Dux was indicted? Was he even the subject of a civil suit or some kind? I don't think so, but I'd be Happy to hear otherwise.

As for the rest, I really don't see it. I can think of a few high profile guys like Dux or ashida Kim. But beyond maybe 5 guys like that I can think of, there are tons of small-time shucksters. Some probably earnestly believe they are experts.

Point isn't that every instructor is qualified. It's simply that I don't think there are any consequences for being an incompetent martial artist. Further, I believe the only consequences stem from being a poor sales person, and that being a great salesperson can overcome a lack of experience. Lack of application leads to lack of repucrcussions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Rather than quote 3 posts, I’ll just quote one.

The belt, up to a certain point, is supposed to be indicative of skill. And other things as well. When you get up there in rank (and usually age), you’ve proven your skill. From some point on that’s different for every school, rank is about your contribution to the art rather than your own skill. Get up to, say 7th dan and it’s all about spreading the art and advancing it one way or another. And promotions are based on that rather than who you can beat up.

Kids’ ranks transitioning into adult ranks are handled very well in my organization IMO. The curricula don’t match up; junior black belts are somewhere between 3rd and 2nd kyu adult syllabus. Kids’ belts have the white stripe going the length of the belt. When a kid becomes adult age, they wear the kid belt and are taught as adults. They wear the kid belt until they earn the comparable adult belt like any other adult would. Junior black belts do the same, but they test for adult black belt like every other adult when they’re ready.

I’ve seen my CI test kids for the comparable adult belt and simply promote them to it during class. It depends on several variables and I completely agreed every time. It’s usually dependent on the kid and the timing.

That sounds functionally like the practice in the NGAA, except that there's no alignment between the two sets of ranks. The youth curriculum lacks any of the Classical material (the equivalent would be no kata taught to kids, just the techniques), so a kid at any youth rank would be testing for adult yellow. In some schools, they'll let any youth (technically "junior") green (again, that's the last youth rank) test for adult yellow. That last part is a bit odd, but it's the result of a change over time in what ages junior ranks are used for. At the first school, they originally only allowed ages 13+, and anyone under 16 started with the junior ranks. It takes most kids a couple of years to get through the junior ranks, so it was natural for them to progress to the adult rank from junior green. Now, of course, many schools have classes for younger kids (though most would use a different curriculum for those under, say 8), which messes with the transition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes... and yet...
My research into the old system said that the scroll of technique wasn't just the demonstration of ability to perform said technique. It was the technique... some variations of it... principles behind it etc. and a few defenses against said technique.

While that's good, it still defines the system by the techniques. It's unlikely someone would add to the list of techniques if they found a gap they could fill that way, nor will they remove (or even replace) a technique that isn't performing well (outdated, etc.). That would keep an art from evolving to improve.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

legal consequences in some jurisdictions for commiting fraud. Also... getting exposed as a fraud by the MA community at large. Frank Dux is a good example.

Claims should be subject to scepticism.
A personal note:
I spent a great many weeks of my life getting to the truth behind the SBD-MDK and Hwang Kee''s claims about certain Okinawan forms that were in the TSD curriculum and his book.

He claimed to have invented or created the Kicho Hyung forms.
This is demonstrably false.
They were created by Gigo Funakoshi.. and reviewed and named by Gichin Funakoshi. And taught prior to HK developing his art and his later created mdk forms.

Won Kuk Lee brought them back to Korea. One of WKL's first black belts [name witheld by me] was running the classes for Hwang Kee at his first dojang in 1946.

This is the reason for the Shotokan influence in early

This undermines HK's credibility. and ultimately leads to guys like John Hancock demanding an explanation... and not being given one... they leave the organization... sometimes taking a school's student body with them.

Those are some examples of consequences.

You're talking about lying about where things came from. Steve appears to be talking about someone starting their own system, then assigning themselves a rank (which may or may not be the appropriate rank for them in that system). There's really no fraud in calling something by a new name if you've changed it enough. And no fraud in self-ranking, since the head of the style is the de facto (and, I suppose, de jure) authority on said ranks. (Note: There's a reasonable argument to be made that assigning oneself rank is open to mis-ranking and self-delusion, but that's not fraud.)

 

[dvcochran]

Can you, though? Even in a group of two, one is, most likely, going to be thought of as being better and thus is the teacher.
I'll buy that smaller groups can have less formal or less strict rank structures, but I do not really think they're totally avoidable.

I agree there is implied rank or when everyone in the group knows each other acknowledged rank. I do not know a lot about the formalities of practicing boxing but I think that overall the learning set is smaller, much smaller, that some MA. Some TKD and TSD organizations have a large list of forms. Then you start counting up the drills and individual techniques and it can get hard to keep up with what a certain time-in-grade should know let alone each students current progression. I think the complexity or volume of grade component requirements drive belting. That said, it goes too far when a kid gets a star for every little thing. The script flips and it starts taking away from learning tenets like perseverance and patience. It is paramount that instructors do not highlight belting as an award. A goal or an accomplishment, sure.
No belt styles obviously work in their own way.

 

[Steve]

You're talking about lying about where things came from. Steve appears to be talking about someone starting their own system, then assigning themselves a rank (which may or may not be the appropriate rank for them in that system). There's really no fraud in calling something by a new name if you've changed it enough. And no fraud in self-ranking, since the head of the style is the de facto (and, I suppose, de jure) authority on said ranks. (Note: There's a reasonable argument to be made that assigning oneself rank is open to mis-ranking and self-delusion, but that's not fraud.)

Pretty much. I’m saying that none of that really matters, if you are a skilled salesperson. Your business acumen matters. If you have it, you can succeed (legally) if the veracity of your origin story is bogus and even your skill level is low. I may be wrong, but I’m unaware of any successful civil or criminal fraud case against a martial arts or self defense instructor.