Ranks, moving, and life getting in the way?

[Bruce7]

This is some sound advice, thanks. I also agree with @Kung Fu Wang ’s tournament record perspective.

I’m just curious but does anyone here teach or know anyone who teaches without a ranking system? I like the traditional simplicity of no rank, but the benefit of the ranking system is clear as for organizing students and skill levels. How do you set bars for your students without ranks? I can see having a list of forms from easy to hard and teaching each student when ready. Things like pairing up students when some are more advanced than others on throws and joint locks—I feel like it’d get tricky. Especially when some students come and go and some stay long term.

Finding a school without belts nowadays is next to impossible. I have hear of ,but never seen Aikido schools that have only white and black belts.

I studied Kung Fu in the 70's. Everyone had a white belt except the teacher. He had one class, students were in their late teens or early twenties. The training was hard so only men who were dedicated and in good shape stayed. Everyone one knew each others skill level.
There was never the problem of a lower belt being better than a higher belt. Having no belts was a great experience. No Ego problems.
Everyone did the same thing the first hour. Then he broke us up in groups the second hour and each group learn something different depending on skill level.

I like you train for 12 years without a black belt, I never cared about rank.
My first two teachers were to good. My other teachers were not bad, just not at the level of my first two teachers, I did not feel I was moving to another level of knowledge and skill. The only reason to stay was to get belts that meant nothing to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Finding a school without belts nowadays is next to impossible. I have hear of ,but never seen Aikido schools that have only white and black belts.

I studied Kung Fu in the 70's. Everyone had a white belt except the teacher. He had one class, students were in their late teens or early twenties. The training was hard so only men who were dedicated and in good shape stayed. Everyone one knew each others skill level.
There was never the problem of a lower belt being better than a higher belt. Having no belts was a great experience. No Ego problems.
Everyone did the same thing the first hour. Then he broke us up in groups the second hour and each group learn something different depending on skill level.

I like you train for 12 years without a black belt, I never cared about rank.
My first two teachers were to good. My other teachers were not bad, just not at the level of my first two teachers, I did not feel I was moving to another level of knowledge and skill. The only reason to stay was to get belts that meant nothing to me.

I ran into an Aikido school last year that was still just white and black. They are rarer than they once were, but if I recall correctly, that instructor said it was the practice of the entire organization (I think the one led by Bill Witt?).

There are plenty of MA places that don't have ranks. Many CMA systems have no ranks. Boxing gyms don't typically have ranks, and the same is true of many MMA gyms.

 

[Steve]

View attachment 22132

came down the mountain.... if untrue would be fraudulent. that has longterm negative consequences.

What consequences do you think would occur? Genuine question. I teach a system. You teach a system. Both were invented by someone. Mine by me. Yours by your instructor's instructor. What is tje difference?

 

[Steve]

May be obvious, but operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in a large organization or a competitive style of martial arts.

BJJ has rank because competition is inherent to the style, and the ranks are calibrated from one school or organization to another through competition. Even styles that do not have traditional rank structures, like western boxing, still have a rank structure. When you record wins and losses, and who they were against, you are documenting rank, albeit not in a traditional manner.

A school can sustain no rank internally. Even a small coalition of schools can maintain no rank, but at a point it becomes unsustainable. Measuring progress lacks calibration from one instructor to another, and the integrity of the system becomes compromised. This will happen even with ranks, if the system lacks application.

 

[Dirty Dog]

you could roll back to the Menkyo Kaiden system. teaching a technique... and award a scroll for that technique... after 15-30 years "full transmission" or kaiden scroll is issued.

this is one way around ranking systems.

Not really. It's just putting the rank on paper instead of on the waist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

May be obvious, but operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in a large organization or a competitive style of martial arts.

BJJ has rank because competition is inherent to the style, and the ranks are calibrated from one school or organization to another through competition. Even styles that do not have traditional rank structures, like western boxing, still have a rank structure. When you record wins and losses, and who they were against, you are documenting rank, albeit not in a traditional manner.

A school can sustain no rank internally. Even a small coalition of schools can maintain no rank, but at a point it becomes unsustainable. Measuring progress lacks calibration from one instructor to another, and the integrity of the system becomes compromised. This will happen even with ranks, if the system lacks application.

I need to consider this a bit more. I think I agree, at least in concept. There many places don't actually have ranks, but the function is served by something else. In some cases, it's pure seniority, but something ends up serving some of the functions we get from rank.

 

[spidersam]

May be obvious, but operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in a large organization or a competitive style of martial arts.

BJJ has rank because competition is inherent to the style, and the ranks are calibrated from one school or organization to another through competition. Even styles that do not have traditional rank structures, like western boxing, still have a rank structure. When you record wins and losses, and who they were against, you are documenting rank, albeit not in a traditional manner.

A school can sustain no rank internally. Even a small coalition of schools can maintain no rank, but at a point it becomes unsustainable. Measuring progress lacks calibration from one instructor to another, and the integrity of the system becomes compromised. This will happen even with ranks, if the system lacks application.

That’s what I’m trying to understand. There are the kung fu schools in China with no belt rankings. They have hundreds of students, no? How do they operate?

 

[Steve]

That’s what I’m trying to understand. There are the kung fu schools in China with no belt rankings. They have hundreds of students, no? How do they operate?

Are you asking about rank or about belts? I see the latter as being a specific subset of the former.

If the question is how they get along without belt ranks, I would say pretty easily. Two quick options come to mind. You can have minimal standards in a club like setting where there is no measure of, or reward for, skillfulness. Kind of like a weightlifting gym, where people largely just work out on their own for their own purposes and with their own goals in mind.

Or, two you can have a ranking system other than belts. could be formal or informal, related to overt ranks, or more along the lines of honorifics. Could be anything... well, except belts, I guess.

 

[lklawson]

May be obvious, but operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in [...] or a competitive style of martial arts.

Like Boxing?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I need to consider this a bit more. I think I agree, at least in concept. There many places don't actually have ranks, but the function is served by something else. In some cases, it's pure seniority, but something ends up serving some of the functions we get from rank.

I agree that there is often some kind of rank structure. But you can avoid it if the group is small enough.

 

[Steve]

Like Boxing?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't know what you're trying to say, Kirk.

Edit: to be more clear, I'm not sure what you're asking for or expecting in response. You snipped out my specific comments about western boxing that might answer your question. If intentional, I might be able to answer if you just elaborate on the question.

 

[lklawson]

I don't know what you're trying to say, Kirk.

Edit: to be more clear, I'm not sure what you're asking for or expecting in response. You snipped out my specific comments about western boxing that might answer your question. If intentional, I might be able to answer if you just elaborate on the question.

I'm saying that Boxing doesn't have ranks per se. The "rank structure" is really nothing. It's ONLY related to competition. How many wins, what titles. Only the young adults compete. Get up to my age and you can't compete any more. Boxing is not "small" by any means. It's huge. I'm sorry but, while boxing does have competitive "ranks" (sort of), it is simply not representative of what it looks like you're trying to say. There's just too many people who don't compete or don't compete any more (or can't because competitive boxing is a young man's game). What "rank" did Cus D'Amato have?

Sorry, but I disagree with the way you seem to have cast boxing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I'm saying that Boxing doesn't have ranks per se. The "rank structure" is really nothing. It's ONLY related to competition. How many wins, what titles. Only the young adults compete. Get up to my age and you can't compete any more. Boxing is not "small" by any means. It's huge. I'm sorry but, while boxing does have competitive "ranks" (sort of), it is simply not representative of what it looks like you're trying to say. There's just too many people who don't compete or don't compete any more (or can't because competitive boxing is a young man's game). What "rank" did Cus D'Amato have?

Sorry, but I disagree with the way you seem to have cast boxing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Is it possible you are reading into my post things which are not there? I don't see anything above that conflicts with my point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you asking about rank or about belts? I see the latter as being a specific subset of the former.

If the question is how they get along without belt ranks, I would say pretty easily. Two quick options come to mind. You can have minimal standards in a club like setting where there is no measure of, or reward for, skillfulness. Kind of like a weightlifting gym, where people largely just work out on their own for their own purposes and with their own goals in mind.

Or, two you can have a ranking system other than belts. could be formal or informal, related to overt ranks, or more along the lines of honorifics. Could be anything... well, except belts, I guess.

Indeed, in something like a boxing gym, I'd expect there's an unstated and generally understood ranking system. Everyone who's active kinda knows who can compete with them, who can destroy them, and who can't keep up with them. And that'll end up filling some of the same functions as formal ranks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree that there is often some kind of rank structure. But you can avoid it if the group is small enough.

Can you, though? Even in a group of two, one is, most likely, going to be thought of as being better and thus is the teacher.
I'll buy that smaller groups can have less formal or less strict rank structures, but I do not really think they're totally avoidable.

 

[Steve]

Can you, though? Even in a group of two, one is, most likely, going to be thought of as being better and thus is the teacher.
I'll buy that smaller groups can have less formal or less strict rank structures, but I do not really think they're totally avoidable.

Yeah. I think you can. Two people can go to the gym to lift weights. One guy has been doing it longer than the other, and is stronger. But there need be no rank or pecking order. This is true even if they interact a lot.

As soon as you introduce a need for rank, such as competition, you will naturally also introduce some kind of ranking structure. This is true whether you want it or not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah. I think you can. Two people can go to the gym to lift weights. One guy has been doing it longer than the other, and is stronger. But there need be no rank or pecking order. This is true even if they interact a lot.

As soon as you introduce a need for rank, such as competition, you will naturally also introduce some kind of ranking structure. This is true whether you want it or not.

Weight lifting (unless it a competition) is pretty much a solo activity. So there may be two of you lifting (or 20) but you're doing your own thing. So I don't really think that applies to MA ranks.

 

[spidersam]

Weight lifting (unless it a competition) is pretty much a solo activity. So there may be two of you lifting (or 20) but you're doing your own thing. So I don't really think that applies to MA ranks.

Also my thinking is you can’t really compare lifting weights or boxing to most martial arts—one weaker and one stronger man can do the same activity together, they easily just switch the weight load or reps. Boxing there are usually no forms/kata so everyone of different levels is training the same activities in general, just different spar levels. When it comes to forms, shuai jiao, and chin na, that’s what I’m wondering how to organize in a crowd of students. The who has learned which techniques game.

 

[Steve]

Weight lifting (unless it a competition) is pretty much a solo activity. So there may be two of you lifting (or 20) but you're doing your own thing. So I don't really think that applies to MA ranks.

Depends on the martial art, the goals of the people training and how they intend to apply or not apply what they are learning. Kirk highlighted very well how these things drive the need or not for rank.

 

[Steve]

Also my thinking is you can’t really compare lifting weights or boxing to most martial arts—one weaker and one stronger man can do the same activity together, they easily just switch the weight load or reps. Boxing there are usually no forms/kata so everyone of different levels is training the same activities in general, just different spar levels. When it comes to forms, shuai jiao, and chin na, that’s what I’m wondering how to organize in a crowd of students. The who has learned which techniques game.

so real martial arts have kata? Lol. Okay. Well i guess that is one definition.